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"Mi passi il burro per piacere."

Translation:Please pass me the butter.

October 23, 2013

73 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tcheard

A question about per favore/per piacere, are they interchangeable? Is it that one is more polite/formal than the other?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/craaash80

They are mostly interchangeable. There are nuances though, so even the tone of voice is important.

If you are using a serious / formal tone of voice, and you are in a debate / polemic context, you may prefer "Per piacere" to underline that what you're asking is due.

If, given the context, you are at a disadvantage, you could use a smoother tone along with "per favore" to highlight that you're asking some sort of preferential treatment, although not due. You're not begging, just flattering a little.

That said, one could demand you something using "per favore", or ask you a favour using "per piacere". Don't take them as rules; they're just, as I said, nuances.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/StefanoFer961741

They are fully interchangeable. As you have said, tone of voice and context matter most.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AntonyHodgson

Is this actually subjunctive? 'passi' could also be simple present. If it's subjunctive, is it because there's an implied 'i want that' (voglio che) in front of it, or is it the 'per piacere' that directly requires the subjunctive?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/maloewe

Then why is "would you pass me the butter, please" wrong?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gufinoverde

Because the imperative in English is "pass me." Italian uses the imperative proper for the tu, noi and voi forms but the subjunctive for the polite Lei form.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Liana_Istriana

Because "would" "could" or "should" is using conditional, which like in English is used to be polite. ('potresti passarmi il burro?" ) But this is imperative, which is a simple instruction to pass the butter. This unit is on subjunctive so this exercise isn't meant to be here. It's only words in subjunctive and polite imperative are the same. But they're different grammatical concepts :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeffrey855877

The author of the cited article doesn't seem to understand English imperative. She says:

"Be good! Stay home! Let's go!

"When we say the above phrases in English, the only hint that it’s a command or a suggestion is our tone. Unlike Italian, we don’t have a special way of changing the verb that makes the situation obvious."

Does any English-speaker have any trouble determining that "Be good" is a command? I certainly don't, and I don't need tone of voice to tell what it is: an Imperative mood command to be good.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IsolaCiao

You drop the subject pronoun.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeffrey855877

Many English subjunctive verbs are the same as indicative, and we all use them in proper format. That is to say, many times, it doesn't matter whether you understand you're using subjunctive or indicative as long as you're using the right words.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alkajugl

Where I live people mostly say, "Please pass the butter" with "me" understood.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lbyler

As Viaggiatore wrote, the polite (formal) imperative is in subjunctive form. As such, it would make much more sense to include this example in the imperative unit or (even better) the Formal You unit which, IMHO, needs a lot of improvement.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/silkwarrior

Yes, on my first trips to italy inter-railing I was forever saying "mi scusi" as I weaved up train corridors threatening to squash italians with my rucksack. I must have learned it as a set phrase. Only recently have I realised that it was the subjunctive. Enlightenment comes to all eventually :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John_Swede

Unfortunately wrong kind of light :-) "Mi scusi" is imperative mood and not subjunctive mood. But, you are not that wrong, and here is a short explaination:

We have to go back to the roots, the latin, and the imperative mood. It happens to be so that they simply didn't have imperative in the third person. When the Italians formed their grammar, this was quite unacceptable, you have to be able to be imperative in a polite mood too! So what did they do? You guessed it, for the third person polite mood Lei, you conjugate the verb as you do in subjunctive.

/John


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/silkwarrior

ah, interesting. So you are saying that it is an imperative but written the same way as the subjunctive? I was aware that I was being polite as in, would you .... Looking forward to your reply. My other favoured phrase by the way on my early Italy travels was "Non lo so, sono inglese". I found that accounted for/excused almost any stupidity.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John_Swede

True, they took the subjunctive pattern since there was no imperative to take. And frankly I think it makes some kind of reason.

To start with, the Latin Romans, didn't "Lei" each other, so for them, this was of course no problem. What would happen if with rephrase and throw in some polite, humble, doubts in this? Subjunctive of course:

Spero che ti mi scusi. Spero che Lei mi scusi. (No eqv in latin)

Compare with imperative:

Scusami! (True imperative, subject hook on to the end of the verb) Mi scusi! (The "invented" imperative, with subjunctive pattern, no eqv in latin)

The interested may check out how it is solved in the other latin languages :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John_Swede

ti - tu, typo there...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/silkwarrior

Many thanks, have a lingot.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HaroldWonh

I think I understand about the polite imperative, but what or who, please, is IMHO?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lbyler

Sorry, I thought everyone understood this particular bit of netspeak. It means "In My Humble Opinion."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

ibyler: I thought it stood for some sort of International Health Maintenance Organization, dedicated to helping people who've been going nuts trying to learn a foreign language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HaroldWonh

Thanks. No, I've never come across that.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Teresinha

Great! You are updating me... Thanks!


[deactivated user]

    This is the polite imperative. I have no idea why it's even here.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/evanescent1993

    What is my purpose?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vangelion

    You pass butter.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/craaash80

    A comma should really help here: "Mi passi il burro, per piacere".


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ibarix

    Exactly why I translated it as - pass me the butter for pleasure :D


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

    ibarix--earning yourself a lingot. Ciao.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IrenaPasvinter

    What this has got to do with subjunctive?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tuftypoem

    "Passi" here is in the subjunctive form


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

    The idea is "Would you pass..." which is a polite request, requiring the subjunctive (polite imperative).


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/craaash80

    Right. In Italian, you call this way to address somebody "dare del Lei". (EDIT: where "Lei" is literally "She", but in this case translates with "you" formal).

    What they won't tell you, is that using the 3rd person does not suffice: you have to use subjunctive (instead of simple present).

    This kind of polite addressing is similar to "Sie..." usage in German.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gufinoverde

    It might be helpful to other readers of this exchange to read about the origins of the use of the third-person singular feminine pronoun as a polite form of address. Here are a couple of links that explain it (one in Italian and the other in English):

    http://www.focus.it/cultura/curiosita/perche-ce-labitudine-di-rivolgersi-agli-sconosciuti-con-i-pronomi-lei-o-voi

    http://blogs.transparent.com/italian/a-brief-history-of-lei/

    Here's another link to a scholarly treatment of the subject with regard to German ("The German Address System: Binary and Scalar at Once"):

    https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:no1QsdMwp84J:https://www.uni-due.de/~lan300/20_The_German_Address_System_%28Hickey%29.pdf+&cd=10&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr

    According to the latter article, the use of the third-person singular feminine pronoun as a polite form of address in German is attested by the end of the 16th century and later was used with plural verb forms.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/craaash80

    Thanks, @gufinoverde. I consider myself a student and your information doesn't get me confused at all; on the contrary, history and etymology help me greatly in day-to-day learning.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gufinoverde

    And thank you for your comment. Study of historical origins as to usage and vocabulary have also been very helpful to me in day-to-day language learning.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Steven193851

    Those were fascinating. For instance, I had no idea thou/you corresponded to singular/plural and "you" came to replace "thou" because "thou" was considered impolite. That explains why "you" is always treated as a plural.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnnByler

    "Lei" (upper case) in this form is "you". "lei" (lower case) is "she". It is the polite, or formal, "you", but it is still second person singular. Just as the formal second person plural is "Loro" (upper case). The confusion arises because they are similar to third person pronouns and take third person verb forms in all tenses. For commands, that tense must be the subjunctive (congiuntivo).

    You are correct in that it is similar to the formal "Sie" (upper case) in German (note the parallel that "sie" (lower case) also means "she"). The only difference here is that "Sie" is both singular and plural. Also, the formal German commands take the infinitive, not the subjunctive.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Macossay

    So it seems like Duo ought to accept "Would you pass the butter, please," as an answer. But it doesn't.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IsolaCiao

    You know that it's the imperative mood rather than the subjunctive by the context (making a request) and because there's no clause introducing the subjunctive.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RussNitali51106

    "Pass me the butter please" does not work. May2016.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rosa569167

    I said "Please pass the butter." Duolingo told me I was wrong!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

    rosa, I suspect it's because you left out "me". Otherwise you could be asking the person to pass the butter to any number of other people.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RonRGB

    The imperative (l'imperativo) is used to give orders, advice, and exhortations.

    Examples: Spiegaci!, = Explain to us!, Girati! = Turn around!, Non tormentarmi = Don't torment me!, Sbrigati = Hurry up!, Chiamami! = Call me!, Scrivimi! = Write me!, Sta' zitto! = Shut up!, Lasciami in pace. = Leave me alone., Mettila dietro. (una bici) = Put it in the back. (a bike), Non dirmelo! = Don't tell me!, Non fare l'innocente. = Don't play innocent., Divertiti! = Enjoy yourself!, Dille di riprendersi. = Tell her to get better., Non preoccuparti. = Don't worry yourself., Calmati! = Calm down!, Digli di chiamarla. = Tell him to call her., Tocca a te! Your turn!, Si accomodi. = Make yourself comfortable., Trascinalo a scuola! = Drag him to school!, Coprimi! = Cover me!, Vattene! = Get out of here!

    imperativo presente [passàre] = present imperative [to pass]

    pàssa [non passàre] (tu) .......... pass [donʻt pass] (informal, singular)

    pàssi (egli) .......... pass (formal, singular)

    passiàmo (noi) .......... letʻs pass

    passàte (voi) .......... pass (informal, plural)

    pàssino (essi) .......... pass (formal, plural)


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alanvoe

    Just to make it clear, the accents are used in this verb conjugation only to indicate stress. They do not exist in the real words.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RonRGB

    You are correct.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Momaba1

    Why not "pass the butter, please"??


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DanielMcGu5

    Why isnt per favore acceptable in this case? Anyone have an answer. Gracie.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Paoluzzu

    I don't think it's polite imperative (Lei-form). If it were, then Italians would say «Mi faccia il caffè, per favore» but they don't. They always say «mi fai un caffè, per favore». So I guessed that it's just the 2nd person indicative form used somehow to express the request or command. Am I wrong?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

    Yes, I think so. The verb is passare as you know so the 2nd person indicative would be 'passi' as you state. But it's not the familiar imperative, that'd be 'passa'. 'Passi' is the formal or polite imperative formed by the present subjunctive, not the present indicative. I'm not a native, but I believe that's correct. You can see it perhaps more clearly if you look at the verb 'dire'. 2nd person indicative is 'dici' and the formal or polite imperative is 'dica' as in 'mi dica'; well if you check you'll see that 'dica' is the present subjunctive.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ibarix

    LOL I translated this - pass me the butter for pleasure :D That's not correct? :D


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

    Hey, if it works for you, who am I to say it's wrong. :-) --oleo, oleo in free.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PabloGuerr710536

    What's that?

    Sometimes I can translate "hand" as "pass" like in the sentence "hand me the soap", but I cannot say "hand me the butter"?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

    I'd say Pablo that 'pass' is probably more common, but I wouldn't say that "hand me the butter" is wrong. I can definitely hear someone say that.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alanvoe

    You can. "to hand" and "to pass" are synonyms in this context. You can report it if your answer was rejected.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DanteMigon

    Why isn't "pass me the butter if you please" acceptable? It may not be commonly used but it is correct in form.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Catalina142540

    It can also be inverted: pass me please the butter


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

    Catalina, No. It's either "Please pass me the butter" OR "Pass me the butter please." "please" should not be put in the middle, though you'd be understood. It sounds very unnatural and non-native.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnthonyDiNome0

    pass me the butter please is wrong why


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrettThoma3501

    Could you say this without it being reflexive? "Passa il burro a me, per piacere" or something similar?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/peecdro

    why is it passi if the original verb is "passare"? shouldn't it be "passa", according to the rules given in the unit?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vangelion

    It is the formal imperative. "(Lei) mi passi il burro, per piacere." There are several other discussions of this on this discussion page.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Verena539452

    Pass the butter, please is the version I know. It is marked wrong. This is a phrase in English!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/clairelanc3

    I still don't understand why "passI" and not "passA". All the other verbs in ARE that we have met had an imperative in A.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gufinoverde

    Since Italian technically has no verb forms in the imperative mood for the 3rd person, when you're using the polite (3rd-person singular) form of address with someone and want to express an imperative idea, you would ordinarily use the subjunctive. "Passi" here is the 3rd-person singular subjunctive of "passare." You will hear this form used frequently in polite conversation ("venga," "si accomodi," ...).


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rthessler

    Can someone confirm whether this is asking someone formally (Lei) to pass the butter? Since passare is an -are verb, if it were asking "tu" to pass the butter, it would be "Mi passa", so I can only assume that this is asking "Lei (formal you)" since the ending is "-i". Just looking for confirmation that I'm thinking about this correctly.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vangelion

    I can't speak with authority (not a native Italian speaker), but I agree with your reasoning.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RyanGaming21

    If i use "Passa" (tu) i say "Passami", if I say "Passi" (lei), i use "Mi passi)?? i think i got it


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/verna120098

    How many of us see "burro" and at first think donkey?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DuaneBue

    not good grammar..."me" is duplicitous

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