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"La testo estos farita morgaŭ."

Translation:The test will have been done tomorrow.

August 18, 2015

61 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

I find the English here a bit clunky. I'm inclined to want to try saying: Tomorrow (at x time?), the test will be done.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SeptimusBones

They mean different things though.

"The test will be done tomorrow." means that the doing of the test occurs during tomorrow.

"The test will have been done tomorrow." means that at a specific time tomorrow, the test has already been done.

For example, let's say that a military officer gives an order: "The recruits must do this test tomorrow. I will be here to check on this matter at 5 o'clock."

If the person responsible for fulfilling this order answers "The test will be done tomorrow.", he implies that the test will be done tomorrow at an unspecified time, meaning that it might be finished before or after 5 o'clock.

If he answers "The test will have been done.", he implies that at 5 o'clock, when the officer returns, the test will have ended.

Therefore, we can see that the latter is more specific in meaning.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

Something with which I am not arguing. I just find the phrasing to be a bit clunky. Clunky is not wrong, just inelegant. Everything else you say I can concur with.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/claire_resurgent

The Esperanto is clunky too. Lots of clunk in this lesson.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

La klunko estas forta en tiu ĉi leciono.

:D


[deactivated user]

    Kiel oni povas diri tiun ĉi frazon kun la vorto "farota"? Dankon.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vikungen

    La testo estas farota morgaŭ, sed oni ne ofte skribas tiel.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MartinShadock

    Kaj en tiu alia frazo (kun farota), oni fokusiĝas pri la nuna stato de la testo... kiu estos farita morgaŭ: oni pli tradukigus ĝin anglen en The test is going to be done tomorrow, aŭ io tiel. Laŭfakte, tiuj du frazoj samas, sed tiuj ne fokusigas pri la samaĵoj :-)


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/leetann

    What does "laŭfakte" mean exactly? I can't find a definition any where even though I see it used often.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MartinShadock

    It’s a compound word (like most words in Esperanto :p), whose components are “laŭ”, “fakto”, and the adverbial ending “e”. It literally means “according to the fact“ (or “facts”, the plurality is not precised). I’m not sure whether “de facto” is used in English, but if so, it would be a good translation.

    In this example, the two sentences La testo estas farota morgaŭ and The test will have been done tomorrow describe the same action/sequence of actions: there is currently no test, there will be one tomorrow, and there won’t be anymore tomorrow evening (or whatever). So, according to the facts, these two sentences are the same :-) However, one focuses on one precise facet of the action, while the other one focuses on another. It’s kind like the half empty/half full story of pessimists and optimists :-)

    I hope this helps. :-) When confronted to a new word in Esperanto, don’t hesitate to try to cut it apart before looking for a definition: there are a lot of words built from others that can’t be find in any dictionary!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

    De facto is used in English, though it is often considered a "legal" term, used by lawyers in courts, and occasional university professors.

    And, de facto, by people with largish vocabularies who love words.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/paulmakepeace

    "de facto" has a specific meaning in English: it's more like "these facts are as such because of the situation", e.g. "the couple hadn't seen each other in years; they are de facto separated". Literally from Latin "by the fact"


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/leetann

    I though that it meant something like 'according to the fact' because of the root words used but wasn't sure. I've been wrong before. And when I couldn't find a definition, I wanted to make sure my guess was correct. Thanks for the clarification.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LouisSepdekdu

    If the test is done later today, then it will have been done tomorrow.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Fantomius

    For "La testo estos farita morgaŭ" Duolingo accepts both of these English translations:

    • The test will have been done tomorrow.
    • The test will be done tomorrow.

    I'm just wondering: Is one English translation favored over the other, or are they both equally acceptable?


    [deactivated user]

      In my opinion, your two English sentences differ in meaning. "The test will have been done tomorrow." means that by tomorrow the test will be over. The test is probably timed for later today, so that as soon as tomorrow comes, the speaker will be able to say, "The test has been done."

      On the other hand, "The test will be done tomorrow." tells us that tomorrow is the day for sitting the test. I personally think that if that is the intended meaning, then "estos farata" would be better, as no particular time is included.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

      I agree that the two English sentences differ in meaning, but I think they are both reasonable translations of estos farita.

      I disagree with your suggestion of estos farata as the present passive participle indicates, to me, something ongoing -- more like "the test will be in progress tomorrow" -- while the past passive participle indicates perfective aspect (not necessarily past tense), closer to "will be done".


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davgwynne

      Perhaps "The test will have been done by tomorrow" is the sense that you are looking for. "The test will have been done tomorrow" means that it could have been competed in the time leading up to tomorrow or on the day, tomorrow. By using the word "by" in the sentence it specifies that the test will have occurred before the date specified.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RandomCanadian12

      Cxu estas diferenco tra "farita" kaj "farinta"?


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

      Certe.

      One is a passive participle, the other an active participle.

      Compare:

      • Mi estos manĝita morgaŭ. "I will have been eaten tomorrow." (passive participle - someone will be eating you)
      • Mi estos manĝinta morgaŭ. "I will have eaten tomorrow." (active participle - you will be doing the eating)

      So La testo estos farinta morgaŭ would mean "The test will have done (something) tomorrow" -- but tests don't do anything themselves.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RandomCanadian12

      nun estas tute klara. Dankon!


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/drownloader

      If the test is "made" tomorrow, my inclination is that we're talking about the creation of the test, not the taking of the test. How do other people read it?


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LouisSepdekdu

      "Testo" is an action, not something you create. You can invent the test, describe its methodology, and then you do the test. Are you confusing it with "ekzameno"?


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Markqz
      • 1799

      This seems ambiguous. Does this mean the teacher will have written the test by tomorrow, or that the students will have taken it by tomorrow? What would be the preferred interpretation, or is it all context? What word would usually be used to suggest "taken" as opposed to "created" ?


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LouisSepdekdu

      What you prepare for the test is not the test itself. The test is being done when the person is being tested, not before.


      [deactivated user]

        The problem with that is that Esperanto uses the same verb "fari" for "to make" and "to do". So an ambiguity arises in this sentence. Does it mean that the test-setter will have written all the questions for the test, or that the people being tested will have answered all the questions? As I said before, the meaning depends on the context, which we don't have here.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LouisSepdekdu

        The only people who can "fari la teston" are those who are tested. The test is not some object someone can build, it's the event of being tested.


        [deactivated user]

          I disagree. After all, in another lesson, there is a sentence about a song which is described as "fare de mia amiko". So there, the word with the "far" root means "composed" or "written". According to Plena Ilustrita Vortaro, "fari" can mean "Kaŭzi, ke io konkreta estiĝu" (Cause something concrete to exist), but it can also mean other things, including "Kaŭzi, ke io abstrakta estiĝu" (Cause something abstract to exist).


          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LouisSepdekdu

          The word "kanto" is not like the word "testo". The song is what you sing, not the act of singing. The test is not what is tested. Try comparing "kantado" with "testo".


          [deactivated user]

            (I'm having to reply as if to your earlier message, as there was no "Reply" button on your latest one).

            I understand that a song is what you sing, not the act of singing. But just as the song that you sing has to have been composed by somebody, so tests or exams have to be put together by somebody - they have to be brought into existence by someone other than the one being tested.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LouisSepdekdu

            Forget about comparing "testo" and "kanto". "Testo" is the act, like "kantado". "Fari la kantado" is singing, not making the song. "Fari la testo" is testing, not preparing the test.


            [deactivated user]

              I think it would depend on the context. There are other ways of putting it to avoid ambiguity. for example: "La testo esto kompilita" or "La testo estos partprenita".


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CarloGamag1

              Is the sentence trying to express a termination time for the test?? I think so, so in English I would say: The test will have been done BY tomorrow. Thanks for any explanation!


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

              I thought this was a good question, but after reading through this thread to see if the question was already answered, I decided to write one big clarification, which I posted two days ago.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CarloGamag1

              I just finished reading and I'll type it to have it handy (I'm still a bit old fashioned !) Very clear ! Thanks


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

              This is another "summary of questions with answers" type post - although slightly different this time. Same request applies - if you found this useful, please vote it up so others can see it.

              Can we please have some clarity on this sentence?

              Lots of discussion in this thread, but not a whole lot of clarity. The sentence isn't that complicated, but there are plenty of ways we can go off into the weeds. Let me see if I can get us going in the right direction.

              What does it even mean?

              Great question. Honestly, I'm not 100% sure. In real Esperanto, sentences are created to communicate ideas and we can understand them in their context. In contrast, this sentence was created to illustrate some aspect of language ... and it has no context.

              Is it fari la teston or just testi?

              One problem is that fari teston is not a common expression in Esperanto. The intention, however, pretty clearly is "to do a test" -- that is -- someone is going to test something. A few people have asked whether this means "create a test". I don't think this is the intention.

              What's this estos farita?

              When we say La testo estos, we are saying something about the future state of the test. What will the test be tomorrow? It will be farita - done.

              • La testo estos farita -- the test will be in a state of being done (i.e. completed).

              This is a common way to form the passive in Esperanto. It means "the test will be done" -- that is -- someone will do the test.

              If Duolingo accepts another English sentence, for sure it's an "also correct" sentence, and not worth giving thought to. Big fat books have been written about this structure. Anything more complex than "It will be done" (i.e. someone will do it) is something less than correct.

              What is the difference between farita and farinta?

              • -inta describes something that has DONE the action.
              • -ita describes something that has HAD THE ACTION DONE TO IT.

              So

              • farinta - in the state of having done (something).
              • farita - in the state of having been done (i.e. of someone having done it.)

              Farinta doesn't factor in here.

              Is it possible to express this sentence with farota?

              No, not without changing the meaning.

              • farota - to be done, about to be done.

              La testo ankoraŭ estas farota

              The test hasn't been done yet.

              If the test is done later today, then it will have been done tomorrow.

              Exactly. That is why "the test will have been done tomorrow" is not a good translation.

              What about "The test will have been done BY tomorrow."

              No. It's the test will be done tomorrow -- they're going to do the test tomorrow. There's nothing in the sentence to suggest "by tomorrow" (and without "by" - i.e. "will have been done tomorrow" - is not a good sentence in English.)


              What about "the test will have been taken tomorrow".

              No, this is not a good translation. There are at least two problems.

              First, it's not "have been" - as has already been explained above. It's a form of passive. someone will do the test tomorrow. The test will be done (by someone) tomorrow.

              Second, "taking a test" suggests that this is a school context. I'm not sure that's clear. See What does it even mean? above. In American English, you say "do a test" in many contexts related to medical tests or testing a product.


              Are you really really sure that it's not farata for the passive?

              Yes. I'm sure.

              Am I really wrong when I say the following: - La tasko estos farita morgaŭ = At some time between now and tomorrow, someone will do the test. - La tasko estos farata morgaŭ = At some time tomorrow, someone will be doing the test.

              Yes, this is really wrong - and there's actually a name for this. It's called the -Ata/-Ita Problemo. We could also call it the "by tomorrow" problem already discussed at least superficially above.

              As I've said, your first sentence is passive:

              • La tasko estos farita morgaŭ - The task will be done tomorrow - At some time tomorrow, someone will be doing the test.

              Here's the model sentence from the Fundamento:

              • Georgo Vaŝingtono estis naskita la dudek duan Februaron (aŭ: je l’ dudek dua Februaro) de l’ jaro mil sepcent tridek dua.

              This is clearly about the day his mother gave birth to him. He was not born on some random day between the dawn of history and his historical birthday on 22 February.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

              Dear LouisSepdekdu

              Why do you keep voting down my post?

              Because I think it contains a contradiction. Either I'm wrong about that, or part of your post is giving wrong information.

              Could you please stop replying to my posts and write one of your own -- start it as a new comment like I'm doing now.

              I'd said that I'm not going to explain this to you any more because you repeatedly assume bad faith in my explanations, but maybe I'll give it one more shot. (To those reading along - there is a lot of history in other threads - and also in this thread, but those notes have been deleted.)

              You replied to me and wrote:

              Unless I don't understand something, there is still a contradiction.

              Twice you write that "farita" means completed.

              La testo estos farita -- the test will be in a state of being done (i.e. completed).

              farita - in the state of having been done (i.e. of someone having done it.)

              Yes, farita describes the state of something that has had an action done to it. That action must be completed.

              And twice you write that it means that someone is doing it (that I think would be "farata")

              Farata describes the state of something that is having an action done to it. That action must be ongoing.

              Let's look at what I actually wrote:

              It means "the test will be done" -- that is -- someone will do the test.

              the test will be done tomorrow -- they're going to do the test tomorrow

              Here I am talking about how the passive works. The last time I brought up passive, you got mad at me saying:

              Maybe you would have given that reply earlier if you had given me some credit when I said I know how passive works.

              I really hesitate to go through this. I've written an entire explanation -- and edited it several times to try to make it clearer to you. I'm sorry, but it really looks like you DON'T understand how passive works. If you do then you're looking too closely at my explanation and missing the context.

              If I say "la tasko estos farita morgaŭ", I'm saying when it will be done. It's passive. It will be done tomorrow -- which means that tomorrow it will be done.

              There's no contradiction. When I say that tomorrow it will be done, it means that tomorrow it will be in a state of having been completed.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LouisSepdekdu

              Maybe I am misunderstanding what you're trying to say. Maybe it's because "done" can mean either that someone did it, or that someone is doing it.

              I don't know why you keep repeating that I don't know how passive works. Am I really wrong when I say the following:

              La tasko estos farita morgaŭ = At some time between now and tomorrow, someone will do the test.

              La tasko estos farata morgaŭ = At some time tomorrow, someone will be doing the test.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

              Maybe it's because "done" can mean either that someone did it, or that someone is doing it.

              Yes - and that's why I went back and specified which meaning of "done" I meant.

              I don't know why you keep repeating that I don't know how passive works.

              I don't know whether you understand the passive works or not. I can't read your mind. Mostly I'm saying that understanding the passive is the key to understanding the sentence.

              Am I really wrong when I say the following:

              La tasko estos farita morgaŭ = At some time between now and tomorrow, someone will do the test.

              La tasko estos farata morgaŭ = At some time tomorrow, someone will be doing the test.

              Yes, this is really wrong - and there's actually a name for this. It's called the -Ata/-Ita Problemo. It's also the "by tomorrow" problem already discussed at least superficially in my comment above.

              As I've said, your first sentence is passive:

              • La tasko estos farita morgaŭ - The task will be done tomorrow - At some time tomorrow, someone will be doing the test.

              Here's the model sentence from the Fundamento:

              • Georgo Vaŝingtono estis naskita la dudek duan Februaron (aŭ: je l’ dudek dua Februaro) de l’ jaro mil sepcent tridek dua.

              This is clearly about the day someone gave birth to him. It's not some random day between the dawn of history and the day he was born.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LouisSepdekdu

              Alright. Now I understand what you meant when you were saying I don't know how passive works. It was not about how to make a passive which is the easy part (esti + passive participle) but about the choice between at- and it- participle. As Bertilow writes, "IT-formo ja povas montri tempon pli fruan ol alia, sed tre ofte ne estas tiel", and I forgot. I apologize for all the trouble and I thank you for your patience.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

              Kind of you to say. I wish I'd seen this post FIRST this morning. I've already replied to at least one of your other messages. I think I managed to say some kind things about you in it. I hope you will read it in the same light.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LouisSepdekdu

              The last time I brought up passive, you got mad at me saying "Maybe you would have given that reply earlier if you had given me some credit when I said I know how passive works."

              That was after you talked about the use of "by tomorrow" instead of just "tomorrow". That had nothing to do with how passive works, hence my reply.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Markqz
              • 1799

              There were some 10 posts in my inbox this morning.

              Just to add to the conversation. In American English, one almost always says "the test will have been TAKEN tomorrow". Using forms of "take" makes it clear that the test is being performed, not that it is being constructed. An instructor or teacher who says the "the test will have been done tomorrow" might be talking about a test that is being prepared. The phrase could be used in response to a student who wants to know when she can TAKE a test.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

              I'll add my thoughts to this to my master response.

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