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https://www.duolingo.com/augiemarquez

Easiest way to learn Broad vs Slender Consants that I have yet encountered.

Everytime I start up with Gaelic again the exact pronunciation of the broad and slender vowels confuses me endlessly. I read the Wikipedia articles on Palatalization and Velarization and it does not help me too much.

This video on the other hand dumbed things down perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIokUII7LX0

I highly recommend it for anyone who is also struggling.

3 years ago

11 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/galaxyrocker

Just be careful. There's a couple of mistakes in there.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/G.P.Niers
G.P.Niers
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Due to a bug in Duolingo your link doesn't work. Here's a working one.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/catalina_marina

Thank you too, btw, for repeatedly warning us against mistakes in different sources.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/augiemarquez

Thank you for the heads up (:

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/catalina_marina

Many thanks. Even if not everything she explains is completely correct, as galaxyrocker says, it does add an interesting concept of which I had no idea yet, and it explains some of what I have been wondering about.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fingolfin1346

There's also a bit of conspiracy theorizing going on in that forum. "Pure WASP arrogance"? In the comments she does acknowledge that she's not a native speaker. Would it be even possible to provide a guide that is comprehensive regarding the realization of sounds by native speakers in all the major dialects, and takes into account the changes in pronunciation between generations even among native speakers, and still have something accessible to learners?

Could some of the people on the ILF provide a better video since they understand Irish pronunciation exceedingly well?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/galaxyrocker

Would it be even possible to provide a guide that is comprehensive regarding the realization of sounds by native speakers in all the major dialects, and takes into account the changes in pronunciation between generations even among native speakers, and still have something accessible to learners?

Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge is much better, and doesn't come at it from the perspective of a non-native Anglophone.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Knocksedan

Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge isn't quite as accessible as a 15 minute YouTube video.

My reaction on reading the responses in ILF was "with supporters like this, is it any wonder that Irish is in the state it's in". "You're doing it wrong" isn't what I'd call constructive criticism. Accent is a completely different issue from dialect, and it doesn't just affect the way we form certain sounds, it effects the way we hear them too, so people with different accents will have a different perception of what sounds make a difference in the way Irish is spoken.

(As an example, the way that Blas was pronounced by the various people in the BBC NI documentary yesterday, with a very flat a sound is noticably different from the pronunciation that I learned (somewhere between Munster and Connacht pronunciation) and quite different from the Ulster pronunciation on teanglann.ie

I can sort of hear the difference between an "English d" and an "Irish d" when I pay attention to the mechanics of how I say Dún an doras! but for the life of me I can't hear that "Irish d" when I listen to the examples for doras.

And don't get me started on the n/r thing!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/galaxyrocker

I still don't think using English sounds for Irish should be promoted or acceptable. They're not the same, and people need to be made aware of that.

Same with using English structure and colloquialisms.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Knocksedan

In principle, I'd agree. In practice, the audience for an introduction like this video would have difficulty distinguishing the sound of the different d's, never mind producing them. While it might have been better if there was an asterisk on the page where she referred to broad d and t, for an audience that needs to have broad and slender s explained to them, the differences between a broad d and an English d are a nuance that can safely be left until much, much later. Whereas the dropping of a fada can totally change the meaning of what you're saying (vis that sign in Scotland), the use of the wrong sound for a broad d, won't impede comprehension in either direction, it will just mark you out as someone who speaks Irish with a "foreign" accent (where foreign includes Ireland outside the gaeltacht).

I'd rather hear the speech in Croker on the 3rd Sunday delivered with flat Dublin Ts and Ds than the rounded blas of a Kerry or Mayo speaker! :-)

Note that I'm only talking about the sounds here. I agree that Béarlachas should be pointed out whenever it crops up, not because it's always wrong, but because it's often helpful to be reminded that the idioms that we use in Enlish often make no logical sense, they only work because they are familiar, and a literal translation isn't always the best translation.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fingolfin1346

To reply to both galaxyrocker and Knocksedan, Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge is an amazing resource and one we should recommend whenever anyone asks about pronunciation but that much IPA will not just frighten a relatively inexperienced learner but will be almost entirely incomprehensible to them. Beginners need introductory material, and I would argue that that necessitates a certain amount of oversimplification (always acknowledged, of course). I, and many other learners, would be so grateful if more people who have excellent knowledge of Irish grammar and phonology spent their time making videos or diagrams rather than sniping from the peanut gallery. You (galaxyrocker) have been incredibly helpful and generous whenever anyone has a question but there are way too many Gaeilgeoirí online who complain about the resources people have made (on their own time and for free) rather than making better ones.

As the popularity of Duolingo has shown, there are thousands upon thousands of people with little or no Irish who would like to learn some, or even become fluent. They need reliable resources aimed at their level. The Gaeilgeoirí I have met in person have always been unfailing encouraging with my attempts. I would like to see the same helpfulness from would-be teangeolaithe online.

3 years ago