"By whom were these rules assessed?"
Translation:Bu kurallar kim tarafından belirlendi?
19 CommentsThis discussion is locked.
I am having a lot of trouble with the grammar here. The closest thing I can get it to translate to is, "Who from their side were these rules determined?" Clearly there is a gap to be bridged.
Wouldn't kimin tarafından make more sense? Like, "from whose side"?
And doesn't belirlenmek mean "to be determined"?
kim tarafından is used interchangably with kimin tarafından. I guess it is because we say "benim tarafımdan, senin tarafından" etc but "Ahmet tarafından, Ayşe tarafından" etc.
belirlemek is both to assess and to determine
That's also true for için, right? "Benim için," "Aysun için."
Is "kim için" interchangeable with "kimin için"?
"Tarafından" is also used to denote the agent in a passive sentence, so "kim tarafından (Ahmet tarafından, benim tarafımdan)" are not "from whose (Ahmet's, my) side" but "by whom (Ahmet, me)".
Neither, I think - I believe it should be benim tarafımdan (the -ım for "my" goes after taraf, the -dan for "from" stays the same). As Selcen also wrote above.
Thanks for spotting the mistake!
I've edited my comment.
(benim tarafından which I had previously written is also found on a Google search, though.)
It would have been nice to have something in the "Tips" section about the use of "tarafından" with "kim" for "by whom" in the passive. I realize that the Duolingo method is about jumping in without knowing what you're doing, and that it's up to us to have a supplemental grammar aid if we want one, but as long as there was a brief explanation of the passive, there could have been a mention.
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Mizinamo explained it in an older post. I'll try to say it differently. When a sentence is in the passive form, instead of saying: "Somebody does something", you say "something is done by somebody". To point out by whom something is done (in Mizinamo's words: who/what is the agent = commands the action), in Turkish you use tarafında. Thus "something is done by Ahmet" is "Ahmet tarafinda bir şey yapılır". I hope it helps.
It would have been helpfull of tarafından had been mentioned in the vocabulary given
Where is the mentioned 'help section', please? It's like Eclectic 1234 said: we jump into the new stuff without getting rules before. It's more like try and error or learning the required answers than really constructing them by myself... sometimes I'm really not sure what to do and why...
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Bu kurallar kimin tarafından belirlendi?
is accepted (as suggested by the previous discussion).
Kim tarafından bu kurallar belirlendi?
is not accepted. This has a different emphasis but I don't see anything in the English to suggest one rather than the other.
Bu kurallar kim belirlendi.......why do we need to add "taraf" here? "Tarafindan" suggest that one side assessed the rules as opposed to just one person.
Is this really a structure which is used by Turks in everyday conversation, or is this course being smug by exposing us to advanced grammar writers might need?