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"De argumenten steunen het standpunt niet."

Translation:The arguments do not support the position.

2 years ago

22 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Lonelocust

"Standpoint" should be removed entirely. No one says "standpoint" in english, even though as a compound word the general idea is understandable. "point of view", "premise", "opinion" are all much better.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/silverthornfire
silverthornfirePlus
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Agreed alas opinion was marked wrong. (Jan 2016)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Axetwin

Exactly! Also, I translated to 'opinion' and it said it was wrong. And then all of a sudden 'stance' would be the correct translation when that wasn't even given?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TheVonz

I also suggest "premise".

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lonelocust

In this context, I mean.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/-Patman-
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Wellicht een betere engelse vertaling voor standpunt in deze context is "position" of "point of view".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/--Charlotte--
--Charlotte--
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Agreed. I added the options. Thank you!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/saaymast

"the arguments do not support the position" not accepted though? - error shown for use of "position".

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/saaymast

...but "the arguments do not support the point of view" is accepted.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Meghan879357

"position" is still not accepted, but it should be...

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Helloquent-Gent

"The history of discrimination, domination and power struggles among the concrete others trump the standpoint of the generalized other." Seyla Benhabib, Turkish-American philosopher. She is Eugene Mayer Professor of Political Science and Philosophy at Yale University, director of the program in Ethics, Politics, and Economics, born in Istanbul, Turkey. Dear native English speakers, particularly Americans! Academic and business English are, at times like these, best thought of as foreign languages!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ilmolleggi
ilmolleggi
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So arguments as in "quarrel" or as in "fact or statement used to support a proposition"?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lonelocust

Definitely the latter option.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ngarrang
ngarrang
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What is a 'standpoint'. I have been speaking English for nearly 44 years, and never I have used the word 'standpoint'. Ever.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lonelocust

They mean "point of view", "opinion", or "argument", but have used a bad literal translation.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lonelocust

That's nice, but I am a native speaker, and when native speakers do not understand what is being said, you should listen.

"I come from the standpoint that..." is used, but "You must support the standpoint that..." is not. I realize the distinction may not be obvious or even sensible to a non-native speaker, or someone who hasn't used the phrases in their native dialect, but these are not equivalent. "stand"+"punt" = "stand"+"point", but everywhere that Dutch uses "standpunt" is not correctly translated to "standpoint" in English.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/El2theK
El2theK
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So you are saying that in all the examples given, all from fairly decent English sources I think we can agree, Dutch wouldn't use standpunt?

Or are you saying that you can:

  • Sympathise with the standpoint..
  • Look at something from the standpoint
  • Have a standpoint
  • Start from the standpoint
  • Trump the standpoint

But you cannot:

  • Support a standpoint.

In case of the former: in each of the examples one could/would use standpunt in Dutch.

In case of the latter, the following sources seem to disagree:

I'm sure you'll appreciate the fact that I made sure that all of the above are definitely native English speakers, and let's just hope that a Director of English Graduate Studies has some idea of what native English speakers understand. For clarity, in all of these cases one could/would standpunt in Dutch.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lonelocust

Yes, I am saying that these are different uses than what is used in this DuoLingo example. I will say the exception is the first PDF link. I'd say in that one it is in fact used as DuoLingo is using it. That's an unusual usage- I'd say I've never seen it before - and while it's perfectly understandable in context, without the surrounding article I'd find it a bit confusing, in much the way that the DuoLingo example is.

The rest are not really the same usage. Exactly how it is that they differ is really idiomatic. I see how it's almost impossible to understand if those are used identically in your native language. The best I can say is that I see "standpoint" used in English to mean a starting point of view or personal perspective but not really a premise that needs defense. I feel that's an insufficient explanation though. "That's just not how we use it" is really the best I can do.

I'm not trying to be rude (and again I realize my first phrasing was indeed quite rude, and I apologize again), but this DuoLingo example does not use common English usage.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lonelocust

And to be clear, I'm not saying Dutch wouldn't use "standpunt" everywhere that English uses "standpoint", but the converse. English doesn't use "standpoint" everywhere that Dutch (apparently) uses "standpunt". You may be able to substitute "standpunt" for every "standpoint", but you cannot substitute "standpoint" for every "standpunt".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/El2theK
El2theK
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So to move from support a/the standpoint to defend a/the standpoint

To quote you: "The best I can say is that I see "standpoint" used in English to mean a starting point of view or personal perspective but not really a premise that needs defense."

Interestingly all these English sources do believe that a standpoint can be "a premise that needs defense".

But I'm going to leave it at this. I'm sure I've given enough English sources, and I'm also sure you are aware that there is little argumentation that beats: "That's just not how we use it".

For various reasons I decided to withdraw from commenting on the Dutch forum and while this particular case tempted me to still comment (partly because my initial response was from before that decision) it is best if I leave it at this and use my time and energy elsewhere.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lonelocust

Sorry, that first paragraph I realize on re-reading has a very rude tone. The point is that native speakers use and don't use purely idiomatic phrases that aren't logically sensible, and the understanding or lack of understanding of native speakers is really the best way to go on whether a translation is correct. I then saw it read more like "your opinion doesn't matter", so apologies.

2 years ago