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https://www.duolingo.com/Luis

Translator tiers for everyone!

LuisPlus
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As many of you know, we've been experimenting with a new system for rewarding people who contribute accurate translations in the Immersion section. We're happy to announce that the experiment was a success, so we're switching all users to the new system today.

The rule is: you start at tier 1, and once you get 100 upvotes ("Looks good") from other translators at your tier or higher, you advance to the next tier (each downvote takes away 10 upvotes). We assigned everyone an initial tier by applying this rule retroactively.

You'll see your current tier and progress on the upper right corner of each document page, and whenever you view a translation from another user, you'll see their tier displayed next to their picture.

Because more accurate translations demonstrate greater mastery of a language, we award you more skill points for translating as you advance to higher tiers (click on the question mark next to "Translator tier" in the document page for more details).

We'd love to hear what you think!

4 years ago

238 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Samsta
Samsta
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I love it. Although a 10 point deduction is quite harsh in my opinion.

EDIT: It appears that it has been changed to a 5 point deduction. Or is it just a few of us?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luis
LuisPlus
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We will look into making this deduction smaller. It actually came from looking at the data and fitting a mathematical model that made sense.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_pinkodoug_
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Also, what plans do you have to monitor this for abuses? What's to prevent a miscreant (or group of them) from following a user around and downvoting their translation tier into oblivion? What if I decided that I didn't like Samsta and decided that I could knock 230 points off his Immersion tier by attacking the work he's done in just the last 20 hours or so?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Samsta
Samsta
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I was thinking the same thing (please don't lol).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_pinkodoug_
_pinkodoug_
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You're safe (from me, at least) hahah. I just picked your name as the OP in this discussion.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_pinkodoug_
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@jackelliot No one said it's funny. I "laughed" only in reply to Samsta's "please don't lol" comment. It's a serious issue that I raised, and it will hopefully get a serious response from the Duo team. Without some significant safeguards in place, the rating mechanism is way too easy to abuse (both upvotes and downvotes).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Jack.Elliot
Jack.Elliot
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it is not a wonderful world. translator tier can be abused. have another look or the good quality translators will jump.. people not good enough to translate could go onto the immersion and cause havoc by down voting any thing not to their taste so in the end the good translations will suffer...

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luis
LuisPlus
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Two things help here: (1) Only the first three ratings for a given sentence affect your tier (so people can't totally ruin your reputation with a single sentence). (2) Only people with a tier higher than or equal to yours can affect your rating (so they have to have quite a bit of setup time before they go on a rampage).

By the way, there are many others ways in which miscreants can abuse both the translations and the users on Duolingo (and in all other systems), but in general most people in our community are well-meaning. We also have systems in place to prevent very clear abuse such as spam.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/small_world
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It seems strange to me that you would only use the first three ratings for each sentence, since this puts all of the emphasis on the first three individuals who see the translation. Why not have a score that is calculated per sentence based on a weighted average of the number of up/down votes? A positive score reflects a "good translation" and a negative score reflects a "bad" translation. In order to prevent people from excessively ruining/boosting your reputation based on a single sentence, just put a cap on the maximum and minimum value of the score that each sentence can have.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_pinkodoug_
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I get that, and I probably would not have such an issue with it if not for the retroactive application. Prior to this change, there was no sense that clicking "looks wrong" would take a hammer to another user's status. I used it many times as a quick signal that I didn't agree with the translation. I'd not have done that if I had any inkling that doing so would carry a penalty as it does now.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wazzie
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This I totally agree with. I had used the looks wrong arrow a few times to indicate that the translation clearly had some errors, but my personal knowledge was high enough to correct it.
Which does bring up another point. We get points for completing a translation. I wonder what the correct course of action should be now if a translation looks wrong, but isn't deserving -10 votes. I guess we will be unable to get those completion points which really is a shame, because I will not be using the looks wrong feature in this manner in the future.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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But maybe Duo prefers that we still act like this. That the level tier really reflects one's level and that if one does a bad translation, even in a good will, then the other users "looks wrong" vote him.

I think Duolingo should give instructions about it. Don't know how they want us to act but if the calibration of the mathematical model was done with the previous behavio(u)r, it doesn't seem illogical/impossible for Duo to want us to act as before...

Luis, any instructions?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/rehana
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I think what he's saying is that it's based on looking at how people have already been voting, without tiers. Downvotes are already rare because you're more likely to just edit, and the software can't necessarily tell the difference between a minor edit and something that changes the whole sense of the sentence. So if upvotes and downvotes were counted equally, you could write 10 good sentences and 10 bad ones, and probably end up with 8 or 9 net upvotes.

Maybe the penalty could be smaller if you're asked to rate sentences even if you edit them?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/aspielman
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I gave up using immersion because of the frustration of having translations mis-edited by people who clearly don't speak English as a first language, but who were equally clearly very certain about being right. I can't see what the two down votes that you have recorded for me were for, but most likely that is how they came about.

(One that sticks with me was a French article about lavender - I translated 'les lavandes' as 'the lavender' and someone went through marking this as wrong at every occurrence and changing it to 'the lavenders'.)

This new model makes it even less attractive to go anywhere near immersion.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BohemianCoast
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This is complex. In principle, we should only have native English speakers translating into English, but in fact it's quite useful to have an original language native come along and say 'ah, actually, this bit's in weird tense, and I don't personally know how to put it in English...'.

But the endless translations into poor English are very frustrating. It's a problem in the main site too, when some of the accepted translations are either unidiomatic or just plain wrong in English.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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There's another issue there, though, isn't there. It's very easy to pick holes in someone else's use of English (sometimes incorrectly), and rewrite the already-translated sentence without having been able to understand the passage in French. And sometimes the sentence needs a major rewrite because it was either a faulty translation or barely comprehensible English, and sometimes its just someone deciding that they want a clunking word for word literal translation or trying to impose American corporate speak on text or some other style on text to which it is inappropriate. In other words, does it become a test of the language someone is trying to learn or their ability to formulate shining prose in their own language?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BohemianCoast
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If the purpose is to generate good translations, then shining prose that accurately captures the sense of the original is what's needed. As a language learning skill, perhaps there's room for the clunky and ugly.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/davidalso
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We shouldn't be encouraged to go easy on bad translations. I don't think the retroactive application is the problem as much as the mathematical model missing a social/emotional factor. If you could have modeled user reactions, the -10 never would have surfaced.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dr.Manhattan95

I agree with pinkodoug. Could you guys maybe reset our stats? Maybe now people's voting will be taken more seriously, but it obviously hasn't been in the past so why count them?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/gitanomama

What kind of mathematical model did you use, or it that proprietary information. How to the down votes work?

In fact, how do you save a streak. I had to work very late one night last week, and when I tried to "buy" the day with a lingot, that didn't work, I just lost the lingot. There there was a wager that I lost two minutes after I made it.

I try to do duolingo every day and have gotten a couple of other people to use it. It is fun but the reward and punishment rules are a bit of a turn off.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Please help. If I make a mistake on a translation and someone corrects it, it's done. The corrected version appears. If I make a mistake on a translation and someone doesn't correct it but marks it "looks wrong" I lose 5 points. I fail to see the logic. Will cutting points from me help me or anyone learn anything? Final question. Where can I find the translation that was marked "looks wrong"?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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For the first question, you would be helped if the answer to your second question was "there" (with this "there" existing). But unfortunately (for the moment?) the answer to your second question is: you can't see it anywhere.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Let's see if I've got this straight? If someone corrects a mistake all those doimg the article especially the one who made the mistake might learn something,and the correcter gets some points. Someone can't/won't correct a mistake so hits "looks wrong" ( incognito so to speak) no one learns anything and the guy who made the mistzke gets punished. Am I to believe it was done for higher educational purposes?? Or "is there something rotten in Denmark" Well I'm steering clea r of Immersion for a while and doing some much needed grammar (weak inflections, strong inflections, oh yeah and mixed inflections here I come). But I'll still be around the threads.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarbaraMorris
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(Responding to jrikhal's post beginning "I totally agree with you")

If it's rare that people vote "looks wrong" without correcting, then why even make it possible? Who gains anything from it? The translator? Other translators? The voter?

I think there are two cases:

1) the person clicking "looks wrong" doesn't know why the translation is wrong or doesn't know how to fix it. The translator gets nothing other than possibly -5 points. Other translators get nothing at all. The person doing the clicking may get some participation-satisfaction.

2) The person clicking "looks wrong" knows how to fix it, at least somewhat, but doesn't bother. The translator still gets nothing except they are even more likely to "get" -5 points. Other translators get nothing at all. The person doing the clicking loses a little bit of their soul for being lazy.

I conclude that the only possible beneficiary is the beginner who gets to feel like they are participating a bit. Is that sufficient reason to have this possibly hurtful mechanism in place? And anyway, that beginner would get to feel even more they are participating if they actually do participate by trying to improve the translation a bit.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarbaraMorris
BarbaraMorris
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Reply to Dessamator's post "Wow, didn't know this conversation is still going".

You said "I'd rather enough people downvote me to trigger a more competent person to see and correct my error instead of leaving it be."

Is there some way that a heavily downvoted sentence will stand out so a more competent person will notice it?

I think it would be orders of magnitude more useful/educational/fair to be able to add a comment without making a change than the current ability to say "looks wrong".

You mentioned that translations are improving because of the downvote system. I wonder if that's mainly due to the punishment aspect reducing the number of lazy "translations" by people just trying to get points. If so, maybe the button should be relabeled as something like "Report this translation" (even if it doesn't actually report it, but just docks the 5 tier points).

Aside from that aspect, the only way I can imagine that good-faith translations are being improved is if beginners are being intimidated from even trying to translate. I say this because there's no meaningful feedback associated with getting downvoted besides a higher count in our downvote stats indicating that somebody has downvoted an unspecified translation. The only thing that feedback tells us is that one of our translations was bad enough that somebody clicked on 'looks wrong'".

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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I totally agree with you. I was just answering your questions:
1. Will cutting points from me help me or anyone learn anything? -> It would help if you could see the "looks wrong" vote and so see your mistake (or that it wasn't).
2. Where can I find the translation that was marked "looks wrong"? -> Nowhere (for the moment).

But I believe that there is not so much people who votes "looks wrong" without correcting after. Don't say it doesn't happen, just that I believe (and hope) not so much. But, again, it's not a reason not to be able to see for which sentence we have been downvoted.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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[Answer to jrikhal's comment beginning "I totally agree with you"]

I do agree. So voting "looks wrong" should require the voter to edit the sentence (and to comment it, IMO).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Reply to Barbara Morris: What can I say except I agree totally and am glad we do because I had thought I mmight be out on a limb. Even in the good old days when 'looks wrong" lacked the big stick I only used it once-after a really unEnglish sentence kept coming back. Other times I'd do what I could but add comment that it still didn't seem exact.

Just realized something else. I'm still getting emails about revisions in my work, which I read but do not reply to. Why don't we get emails on 'looks wrong". Really don't we have the right to know, is there no court of appeal.

Does someone from DL monitor to check for accuracy or abuse? These guys are doing a monumental job and I'm grateful but in this situation they've slipped up and I still haven't read any convincing argument for the "LW' policy.

Answer to jrikhil:: If you are editing a translation obviously it did look wrong. The writer will get an email and can see what was wrong and learn. Thanks to your editing it no longer looks wrong. So, stay clear of the "looks wrong" choice.

If someone knows the repercussions caused by marking "looks wrong" and still does it doesn't that show it's not beimg done for the right reasons

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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Wow, didn't know this conversation is still going. I suggest someone starts a new thread discussing this, since it is obviously still a contentious issue.

Although I can sympathize with the individuals in this thread regarding the downvotes, and I've received my fair share of downvotes. I think we all are jumping the gun. This thing hasn't even been deployed for a month, and people want it to work perfectly.

As a person who was trained as software developer, I know how hard it is to understand, and convert user requirements into usable features, without making the software worse. Worst of all users rarely know what they want until they see it. We can theorycraft all we want from the perspective of a user, but they see constraints, and things we simply don't. So I would advise people to offer suggestions on improvements rather than condemn the young system.

On topic: The downvote system needs improvement perhaps, but I feel it works well enough that translations are improving. Those in the higher tiers don't really downvote things easily. I've made my share of errors, and I've consistently received useful feedback rather than downvotes.

That said, at the lower tiers(0-2) the users are still learning and don't know how to correct things properly, and in my opinion it is better to give bad feedback rather than none at all. If one does not know how to translate an idiom properly, yet knows for a fact the translation is completely wrong, I'd rather enough people downvote me to trigger a more competent person to see and correct my error instead of leaving it be.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sigmacharding
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Perhaps it would be a slightly better system if each user was given a down votes score and an up votes score?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_pinkodoug_
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I hate to put it so harshly, but ten points is BS. I've had 4 translations down voted and each was a better translation that what's currently on there. All were in instances where the voter seemed to prefer poor word-for-word translations to non-literal translations that actually conveyed the message of the original correctly.

Retroactively assigning -10's left and right is a bit extreme since there was no expectation that down voting prior to this switch would hammer another user with such a strong penalty. I'd like to take back nearly every "looks wrong" vote I've ever cast.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/chilvence
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I have a very simple solution to this: Every downvote should REQUIRE that the voter give an explanation for the penalty. That would both weed out anyone that is just being pointlessly vindictive and give the penalised person a chance to either understand their mistake or appeal to the down voter. WIN WIN!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Markmcopc
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I strongly support this suggestion. If downvotes are not reversable, they should be. They are anonymous and they should not be. They are hard to track down, but they should be instructive.

The potential for abuse would not be erased by following your recommendation, but it would be minimized. As it is, I am very strongly demotivated from translating articles.

Besides, there seems to be a bug in the system. I have two downvotes that have absolutely no explanation, where mine is the only translation visible and where all the votes displayed are positive. But the vote summary says that I have downvotes counted against me. And, they are so expensive! Even 5 points can be disheartening, especially if I can't discover why I earned the disapproval.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Serro
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i totaly agree with you....... very good solution...

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/paulscon

absolutely agree dude. I have often wanted to comment on why I changed something.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarbaraMorris
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You can comment on why you changed something. Although maybe you can only comment when you translate from the Original tab.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarbaraMorris
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I don't use the revert button for that. I just duplicate the reasonable translation and then add a comment saying I am reverting to xyz's version. I wouldn't do that if the person who did the original translation would get the credit, but as it is now, the person doing the reverting gets the credit.

Edit: This comment is a response to ejm_etherwork's comment starting "You can't comment" - I see that dl placed it above ejm's comment. (I wish they would increase the nesting level for replies in these discussions.)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ejm_etherwork

You can't comment if you change something back to a reasonable translation though.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Answering paulscon// I always do. It can become tedious repeatingg e.g..titles need to be in quotation marks on nearly every line of a passage. That's why I've initiated the "Immersion Help Center" discussion. I'm hoping that one such notifcation such as the quotation marks will reach a wider readership. It would cut down on the repetition, potential hard feelings etc especially when references are included. Please help with feedback, suggestions etc.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ejm_etherwork

This is a great idea. I have been reluctant to give down votes and have down-voted only when something is obviously incorrect. It would be great to see the reasons for downvotes.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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I can't find the comment now but I believe it's on this thread which says: if you want to revert to a better version and want to explain what you do is make a tiny change --erase a full stop--then you'll have the edit box to explain and later you replace the full stop.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BohemianCoast
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I agree with this. I did a thoughtful translation the other day that was way better than the word for word one that had been there; the literal translation was clumsy and produced a phrase that's meaningless in English. Now, it's possible that the expression was meaningless and clumsy in Italian, but my guess is rather that it was using an alternative meaning that did make sense in English.

2 hours later, reverted and marked wrong, and honestly, it just makes me think that translation is completely pointless.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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Agreed. What's more, it's going to create a false hierarchy whereby people are likely to go along with someone who can pull rank regardless of whether they got it right or not. If it really were acknowledging accuracy it would be great but I don't think that is what's going on at all.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thoughtdiva

Duo has already changed the weight of downvotes to -5 (although I could be in a test group - shh!)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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Still have 10 here. ;)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/rachvx
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I must be in the test group too :)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thoughtdiva

Someone said everyone seems to have it now. jrikhal, do you?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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[Answer to Thoughtdiva's comment beginning with "Someone said everyone seems"]

Yes, I do! :)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/rachvx
rachvx
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oh, good.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/davidalso
davidalso
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DuoCoders: Why not use a weighting system instead? The up and down votes could carry a weight determined by the number of votes held by the one who casts. Max out the negative at, say 5 (because 10? Really?), but the only time the max is applied is if an advanced user casts it. Low-ranked voters would only be worth 1 or even a fraction of a vote.

The downvoting system is broken right now, giving too much power to overconfident (and often wrong) users.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luis
LuisPlus
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This is already implemented as follows: any of the votes only count for you if the person voting is at your level or higher. So, people who are often wrong simply won't be able to affect much.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CIP
CIP
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The downvoting system now is evil. there is no obvious way to tell who downvoted you or why. One vindictive downvoter can totally trash your hopes of every rising past the lowest level. Some people downvote for very trivial errors than can be easily corrected.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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IMO, to see which sentence has been downvoted should be implemented and so we would see the "why" if the downvoter (or someone else) corrected the translation and commented it.

But, IMO, seeing who downvoted isn't useful for learning and would only risk to create conflicts.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Well I agree but have found a way to have the best of both worlds. Make corrections on Immersion and avoid down votes. Go to Immersion Help Center www.duolingo,com/comment/1105259.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wazzie
wazzie
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So, if I am Level 2, and the first two looks good votes come from a Level 1, followed by one looks good from a Level 2, and one looks good from a Level 3, is my total now 1 looks good because my first two votes were wasted on a Level 1 users who don't count towards me or is my total 2 looks good because although I've received 4 total votes, only the votes that count, count towards my three votes per sentence?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mstreeter

It's the latter. The first three votes from someone at your tier or higher are counted.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/aspielman
aspielman
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Unfortunately that is no consolation for those entering the immersion system now!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Samsta
Samsta
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I totally agree. I'm never down voting as long as it's that harsh.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SD-77
SD-77
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Yeah for example I have 82 upvotes and 6 downvotes, so I only have 22 points. That does seem like a bit much.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Nerdator
Nerdator
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As someone who's coming back to doing translations at Duo (I used to translate a lot a year ago, there was a different system back then), I am really discouraged by the fact that hard work can be easily nullified by a couple, often misjudged, downvotes. Sure, my work is not in vain, but being able to showcase your achievement is largely the point of the tier system, isn't it?

I'm not sure of the strength of downvotes should be changed, but it is my strong opinion that downvoting should be limited to top-tier users (say, 4 and above).

This may partly go against the spirit of Duo, but translation is not something an average Joe from the street can do (well). Translation takes skill and knowledge. Expertise is not just a word and is not just an empty privilege. And while it is great that Duo allows everyone to try their hand at it, and help out, only experienced people, people who have shown their skill and knowledge should be allowed to make such judgements about others.

As for now, I invite people to do what I (and, as I see, others) do: if you see a mistake — edit, don't downvote.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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Not necessarily, just because someone is in Tier 1, doesn't mean he's not competent. Some users are actually professional translators (e.g. Olimo) who aren't interested in going to immersion many times. Their rank is probably low, but their knowledge is above most users. That said, I agree with your idea that not everyone can translate. But certainly most people can proofread, and that's what those points are for.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Nerdator
Nerdator
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I'm not saying that someone in lower tiers is incompetent. I am Tier 1 and I am an actual factual professional.

I am saying that only people who have proven themselves (i.e. high-tier people) should be allowed to make downvotes (possibly upvotes, too) — because only someone who's good at it can make a proper judgement.

And you are very wrong about most people being able to proofread. Proofreading and editing are high-responsibility jobs, and take a lot of knowledge and skill, more than for an average translator. IRL, you can find a translating job with a BA degree; for an editor you'll need a reasonably fat CV as well.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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But lower tier level users can correctly downvote copy/paste from google translate for example. And since the higher (in tier level) the fewer they are, a lot of basically wrong translations could not be downvoted since the higher users just wouldn't see all articles: there will be too much.

I think that downvote is not so bad. If you're good, you'll earn back the points quickly. In addition, once in higher level, only downvotes of users with an higher (or equal) level will have an affect on you. And so since they reached this level they're more likely (but can do mistake also sometimes of course) to correctly use the downvotes, no?

Only one thing I think would be great (and already suggested): be able to see which translation have been downvoted in order to understand our mistake. Well, one risk: users starting revenge against someone who correctly downvote them... But well not a problem, since you can see which sentences have been downvoted, you'll detect if an user is messing with you and coud report her/him if needed... ;)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Preusser

Precisely!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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Indeed, again you are right, however, the ability to proofread depends on the complexity of the document I presume. I do however agree that you need to show competence before being able to assess someone's translation, however, it is not feasible for upvotes only being for high tier individuals, since for them to get there(High tier) someone has to vote for them.

In view of this, I propose a proficiency test for immersion translators (http://www.duolingo.com/#/comment/1089090), this would resolve the problem, and at least ensure that there is some measure of determining the competence of the translators.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/olimo
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Proofreading is not as easy as you may think. You have to be very attentive and know the right degree of being picky. I believe it requires some specific state of mind: some guys at my work are fine with proofreading while I hate it. If the translation is good, I tend to lose focus and overlook occasional mistakes. If the translation is bad, it is easier to me to delete everything and translate from scratch. Both alternatives are not good, so I'm just not assigned proofreading tasks.

From discussions about edit wars in Immersion I get that there are many people who can't proofread. If they could, they would only edit when really necessary.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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Indeed, I've proofread a few thesis and research papers for friends and colleagues. It takes a particular state of mind, and you need to be critical, and see where you can improve. The trouble is most of us aren't expert translators, we just randomly translate whatever way we wish.

The other problem is that sometimes people are just lazy, they click "looks good" throughout the text just so they can just get points and move on with their lesson/practice. Finally, sometimes you need to be a domain expert or be advised by a domain expert. For example, I can upload a highly technical programming article that only people with domain knowledge would be able to understand or translate.

I think Duolingo should show a short paragraph (5 lines or less) just recommending how they prefer their translation before allowing people to dig in. They could also offer some short tutorials teaching best/good practices for proofreading and/or translating, and include the possibility to add translator notes for each article, e.g. formatting, consistency, and so on.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JulioTafoya
JulioTafoya
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I agree 100% with you Nerdator.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Agree absolutely with pinkoduog. We've all been through similar situations were the correct translated was replaced with a wrong one--over and over. Losing 10 points is terribly unfair. Rather than down vote I prefer to explain why I'm changing something.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LiamRowe
LiamRowe
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Pinkodoug is absolutely right, I keep getting my translations (which keep the meaning as similar to the original as possible) changed to word-for-word nonsense.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vondrasky
vondrasky
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I completely agree with you on that, wysiwyg < wysiwim , meaning is more important and if it has some artistic or dramatic element is also important the melody. I see that in many videogames that are translated to spanish and i just have to switch to the original language because is generally unbearably dull to hear it.

1 downvote == 2 upvotes , that's a better ratio and it also shouldn't lower you from the tier you are in but rather make it harder go up to the next one.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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//@pinkodoug The 'looks wrong" has been lowered to ×5. Still too much. Just got my first down vote but can't find where. I DO NOT care by whom but would like to know what was so wrong that someone was unable to edit it. Is there any contol by DL to avoid abuse.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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Just for info, there is no statement by Duo that "looks wrong" should be used only when one is enable to edit.

But I agree I would like to be able to see where I was said wrong to learn from my mistakes.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Yes, guess the idea that you just Xed it if you didn't know how to fix it. How naive am I. Are you also saying we have no way of knowing what was thought wrong? Yikes! Do we have Madam Defarge (sp?) in our midst? Thanks for you your help. Could you have a look at a Discussion stsrted called: Immersion Help Center it's pretty rough but I thought it might be place for mutual help on translations.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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I know this discussion (and the others about Immersion etc.) and was just stating that Duo never gave its opinion about all this kind of discussion; that it's "only" users' discussion/opinion (but it's at least something, and I often -- as soon as I have something that I find useful to share -- participate in this kind of discussions).

And so we don't know how Duo wants us to use it:
- if wrong (even a little) then "looks wrong" + edit (if we know how)?
- if "really" wrong then "looks wrong" + edit (if we know how)?
- if wrong (even a little) then "looks wrong" only if we (think to) know how to correct it?
- if "really" wrong then "looks wrong" only if we (think to) know how to correct it?
- if wrong (even a little) then "looks wrong" only if we don't know how to correct it?
- if "really" wrong then "looks wrong" only if we don't know how to correct it?
- as each one wants, the adapt the way it works to general/average/¿? use?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jbm345
jbm345
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Yes, I agree with pinkodug. I also don't think it's working, because of what he said at the end of his post. I'm very hesitant to give a down vote, although I may edit something that the previous translator had written. I have a hunch that others out there are thinking the same thing.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_undertoad

An appeals or grievance process guided by group discussion and/or moderation would be necessary for equitable hearing. Who has time for that?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ehecatotontli
Ehecatotontli
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I've also been down-voted for natural translations in favor of word-for-word translations. It just seems to be a natural consequence of having learners at lower levels check translations

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luis
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Thank you all for the valuable feedback. We'll be working on ways to address your concerns.

I should say, though, that it would be worth you guys giving the new system a chance: our measurements indicate that it is a lot more engaging and produces higher quality results.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dr.Manhattan95

Yes, I definitely prefer having the tiers as opposed to not having them! Thanks for all the hard work you put into this. I'll try to look past the bugs (for now) and appreciate this new feature.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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/ @ Luis As I've said repeatedly I'm really grateful for the monumental job you are doing.

But, I still cannot comprehend the new "looks wrong" policy. If someone edits my work I learn something and the editor gets some points.

With "looks wrong" I lose points, don't know why, have learned nothing. In what way does this encourage people from contributing.

But, the big issue is the not knowing what was wrong.

Keep the who secret because it might cause hard feelings. Then again if under the new system when it's well known that by using "looks wrong" I'll be causing a fellow translator harm, I still use it is that not cause for worry?

What is to be gained by punishing someone for a mistake? What has your research shown that I (and others) cannot comprehend?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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As explained in our streams. I think we have to keep in mind that the "look wrong" is (it's how I see it and think Duo see it), before anything else, do to evaluate the translation level of an user. The first use of it is not to evaluate the correctness of the sentence downvoted (I said "first use").

Indeed Duo needs to evaluate the translation level (which is linked but not the same than the sill level and neither than the real level in the ability to communicate in the language) of the users.
They need it to be able to better the sentence's evaluations: if a sentence is "finished" or if it still need soem review by users. And to do so Duo use upvotes and downvotes (so it serves a little for the sentence itself, cf my remark above) but they weight them with the translation level of the voters, they use also comparison to grammar rules, vocabulary check etc. (if i understood well) and probably a lot of other things we don't know.

Otherwise I still agree that it would be fine to be able to see the sentences downvoted. And no problem, in fact, of risk of vengeance since, when downvoted, we see that someone did it but not who did it.


To summarize how I see it and imagine why Duo put it and with negative points:
(effect of) downvotes is a (necessary) tool more Duo (not so much for users, but Duo need them to use it).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Stijn_Konijn

Excellent work Duolingo team! Although the new tier system still has to be fine-tuned it definitely adds a lot of value and makes it more fun and interesting to translate articles. Today I saw downvotes were down to 5x which sounded more reasonable. Keep on the good work as this is the best language learning tool I ever used :)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN
tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN
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What about the original work being in poor literary state. Do we translate the original works mistakes that are mistakes in both languages, because translaters do not usually change the original work, or do we write improvements in?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Viaggiatore

Of course, the first question is why you're translating something that's so badly written. If you find a simple grammatical mistake there is no reason to try to render it in English, which may not be possible anyway. If the whole thing is written in a regional or vulgar style, it takes a really advanced translator to try to express that in another language.

EDIT. I just read a discussion about an article where a speaker says one sentence in bad Spanish. A thing like that can't be translated exactly, but the translator should try.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Red_Rat_Writer
  1. Do votes decay? It's supposed to be an indication of your translating level. Obviously, (if you study) your translating skill would be different now from six months ago.

  2. There's no option to look at your down votes (or I can't find it). When I learned about the tiers, I saw that I had 40 upvotes, and 4 down votes (they cancelled each other out : p). My first instinct was to look at what was downvoted to make sure I don't repeat any mistakes, however I could not find what was downvoted. (Though this may lead someone to go after anybody who downvoted their edits).

  3. Suggestion: [I know it has been said a million times here] but there's the literal vs smooth/fluent translation problem that needs to addressed (has it?). My idea is to have either two translations: a transliteration of the sentence, and then a more fluid sentence that is more palatable. So users would first transliterate it word-for-word, then they would go to the transliteration and add magic.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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@Red-rat-writer. Oh, as you see so many out here can relate, and probably have been in your shoes. Happy to here the down votes have been lowered to 5 points. It is definitly unfair aand counter productive not having access to downvote information. I have been lobbying for some time for an Immersion Comment section where we could get feedback on proper usage (that little edit box doesn't do it) problems could be rectified once without reversions ad infinitum. We would all benefit; translations would be compleded faster and the frustration level might drop a notch. Non native speakers would have access to idiomatic English with explanations. The comment section for the exercises is a great example of the potential benefits.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/djb86
djb86
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After each of your points, I wanted to upvote your answer, but alas, I can only upvote it once!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mptmpt
mptmpt
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There is a huge potential of abuse as it is now:

  1. Somebody can make a random edit on a perfectly good translation, and then revert his own edit, to have the translation registered as his, and therefore getting all the benefits of the upvotes.

  2. Sometimes, especially for long sentences, one translator does 90% of the work but misses some detail, and the next one that fixes this small detail gets all the credit for the translation.

One thing that you might want to test is not to take into account all the up/down-votes just a statistical sample (10% for example), or throw sentences with known good translations, and compare them with what the user provides to give him positive or negative score. The first approach reduces the risk of abuse because even if I target a particular user, the chances than my downvotes will affect him are minimal. And the second one makes the grading more reliable.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Wandering.Seeker
Wandering.Seeker
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yes, do lower the downvote's deduction please.

also it would be great if we receive a notification or some sort to know where we got downvoted, in order to see how bad translations were...or how bad his/her judgement is.

I finished some translation last night. woke up later, got about 20 upvotes and ONE downvote to ruin it all!

seriously I know it was from "Vincent Cassel" article in french immersion. I think it's because of movie titles or someone, out of grudge, didn't liked the way I edited his/her sentence.

some idiot perhaps thought French and English movies get translated to each other literally. they don't know "le pacte des loups" for example doesn't translate literally to "the wolves' pact" but its true English title out there is "Brotherhood of the Wolf".

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JulioTafoya
JulioTafoya
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I would hate if this happened to me... I am not going to translate anything until the system changes...

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/corujacb

I really, really don't think that system works. It's keeping people from translating, from voting, and generating lots of quality issues and pointless discussions. It could be more simple...

Instead of up or down voting, you should just vote for the best translation or add a new one (or maybe more) you think it's better. It won't accept identical translations (being case sensitive). You can add an small explanation to defend your version.

The most voted is shown in the text, the others when you click. When a sentence reaches, say, I don't know, 30 votes, is considered what is now "checked". When all sentences is checked, translation is "finished". Your translation is "checked", you earn points to advance to the next tier.

You can change your vote if something better appears later, but given points are not taken back, cause it was useful anyways.

The higher the tier, more influence you can have. For example, everyone can try to translate, only tier 2 can vote, only tier 3 can change votes, tier 4 votes weighs more... something like that.

I think this way we can really try without fear, being rewarded when useful, and end up with good quality translations. Someone?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thoughtdiva

I really, really wish this would be implemented :) The mathematical models can take care of required number of votes.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sebas
sebas
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Who gets the up- and downvote points for a sentence? Only the last editor? Even before it didn't feel right that someone who happened to find a single spelling mistake was associated with a good translation instead of the person who actually did translate. That might get uglier when score points are involved.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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I find it great!

Two questions:
1. Since you earn point for votes from users of same or better tier level, if you're alone at your level (or that there is nobody of your level reading/translating the same articles than you) then you'll not progress. Couldn't votes for users of a lower level count for a (very) little something? I perfectly get the idea and why you did it, so this is probably not a solution. But I would be happy if there was a way to progress even if nobody of your level or better is rating you. For example in French it doesn't seem to be a lot of level 2 translating/rating, and so it's hard (impossible) to progress further.

\2. [gadget suggestion :)] Why not adding this information in the profile? Maybe, when hovering over the language medals (of language XXX, for the example) it gives the list of tier levels for every combinations languages that include the language XXX.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Visualsilva

Luis, per your request, this is what I think. I initially liked the idea of a translator tier, especially after completing all the lessons in the learning tree. In fact I thought it would even be a good idea to have the translator status be posted on people's profiles. I'm sure it's a very well intentioned tool. But now given the present state of the translator I have pretty much decided to ignore it. Here's why: I signed up for duolingo to learn a new language. To learn a new language you have to make many mistakes. Many, many mistakes. Really the only way you can get better at anything is to make lots mistakes. Just ask Thomas Edison when he was trying to invent the lightbulb. The system takes 5 points away from you when that happens. There is no reason for that if you really want to encourage people to recognize it as a motivator. Penalizing someone for trying to make a difference does nothing but encourage them to leave the system or look for "easy" translations rather than risk getting the red mark of shame(- 5 points) on their account. It only takes one or two red marks on your account before you start looking for easier ways to get to the next level. This incentive encourages you not to take risks and explore. Learning ceases when you look for the easy way out. Some will say you need a disincentive like this to encourage people to not make mistakes. But this is not true. If you make a mistake on a translation someone else will come along and fix it. The original translator can learn from what has been fixed by others when the email announcing a change to their translation shows up in their inbox. No, what you need is a system so that novices like us will be encouraged to make lots of mistakes, learn from them, and keep applying what we've learned so that you end up with better and better translators. The translator tier does not accomplish that for me. I'm going back to translating whatever I can instead of picking "the easy ones"and not concerning myself with a tier. I imagine I will be at negative 1000 points soon. But remember, I originally came to this site just to learn a new language.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarbaraMorris
BarbaraMorris
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Thanks Visualsilva. You expressed my feelings about this exactly.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Add my thanks too. I won't repeat what I've said on other posts (don't care abt points etc) but if anyone could tell me why someone would want a higher Tier I'd be grateful. But I did work hard on my translations many of which got "revised". No problem, at least I created the stepping stone for a better translation. I strongly disapprove of the -5 for the "looks wrong" for all the reasons @Visualsilva mentions. At last I arrived at Tier 5, but found I had been choosing "the easy ones" towards the end. It's tempting when you're at 95 upvotes and get slapped by an undeserved minus 5. I'm assuming Duo's research has found that the Tier system for translations is successful for which I am glad even if I don't understand. I'll do whatever I can translating but not be influenced by Tiers, Up votes or Down votes. And I think I'll start liking it again as I had at the beginning. Now I can spend more time on grammar. (Yes, Barbara I'm still sweating over the grammar, : -))

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Hohenems
Hohenems
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why someone would want a higher Tier

Because Duolingo is viewed as a game to many users. Users that don't actually care about learning, only about having the most points, the most lingots, the highest tier, etc... This is largely due to Duolingo "gamifying" everything (meanwhile...where are the grammar explanations?)

I can think of one user who is at Tier 28 (last I checked). 90% of what they translate is just titles and subtitles. From what I have seen/understand from a previous post by someone, there are 2, possibly more, people that just keep upvoting one another on these one word sentences so that they can be the "best" (you need someone of your tier or higher to upvote you so you can advance to the next tier....so essentially, you need an upvote buddy to help you play your little game). These people can downvote anyone and everyone as they see fit, whether it makes sense to or not.

The immersion section is broken and I try to stay away from it (but get sucked back in once in a while).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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@Hohenems Thank you for your full and honest reply. I have noticed the "system" in use where some reach high Tier's translating:"dates, names, and other easy items." Most often they are articles hand chosen by the translator or a buddy to contain inane items easy to translate. I reported it to a Moderator but the reply I received addressed other points in my report but not this one. I wonder if the staff is aware of this "game playing system" and don't change it as long as the work gets done. That's hard to believe. Sad to say I had thought that Immersion was broken but reluctant to face it. Many thanks for your help. We'll carry on.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kassandra8286
kassandra8286
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Wow, Tier 28? The highest I've seen in my Immersion is Tier 7, but obviously people are rising within the system all the time, so I'm sure there are those with much higher tiers by now and I just haven't noticed. Or maybe because I rarely bother with titles and subtitles, and that is where the high-tier folks exclusively spend their time. ;)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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I'm in accord with what Hohenems said. Some see it as a game and need the feeling of winning or out maneuvering the system or whatever. I plan to do translations when I can. I'll be at tier 5 for as long as I keep learning and it feels like a weight has been lifted.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/gitanomama

I no longer get any points for reading and agreeing with a translation and it is hard to find documents where I can be the first translator.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Red_Rat_Writer

You have to be in the second tier to get points for upvoting translations, this may discourage translation reviews for beginners and other people in lower tiers.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thoughtdiva

You'll have to upload some :)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/scottann

I do not really care about points but you show such concern and respect for your users. One more thing to love about Duolingo. We do feel we are heard and can contribute.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DeeRamm
DeeRamm
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One thing is not clear to me. Is editing an existing translation the same as a down vote? If so, I guess I should refrain from making picky little improvements. I never use "This looks wrong" or whatever the exact words are.

More broadly, I think something like this was really needed. Somehow, better translators need to have more "weight". I'd still like to see something where, maybe on a sampling basis. evaluations from real experts (i.e., staff) enter into the system as well.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mstreeter

Editing does not count as a downvote.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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I suggest that you make that explicit in the Translation Tier information popup, maybe also, how downvotes disappear once we reach the next Tier.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Leslie_Duo

Thanks!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Leslie_Duo

I would also like to know if editing an existing translation will count the same as a down vote. I guess I thought that we were collectively trying to produce the best possible translation for any given document. In that spirit, I too have made "picky little improvements" (as DeeRamm says). I do not wish to punish other translators, as I assume that they are just trying to do the best translation they can. I've never clicked the "Looks wrong" button - I typically refrain from doing anything with a sentence if I can't either A) edit it in a constructive way, or B) click "Looks good." Luis? Your thoughts? What is the goal here?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DeeRamm
DeeRamm
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I applaud your basic attitude. We are trying to improve things. I also just skip a sentence when not sure I can make it better and it is probably not very wrong.

In fact, I wonder what the model is for doing translations by groups of people with rather mixed talents. I could imagine the following would work. 1. Someone with good to moderate skill makes a first pass. The idea is not to be perfect or polished, but to get the ideas right and moving in the right direction. 2. Translators form all levels massage the text hoping to improve it. This is the messy part and the trick is to make sure things tend to be improved. At this stage, almost everything that the person in step one did might a altered or tweaked. That doesn't mean that the first translator did a poor job. In fact he/she provided a valuable service to get things going. 3. Have two or three very highly rated translators (still students) scan everything to make sure that nothing awful gets through (making quick fixes if needed).

I don't know if this makes sense, but if there were software monitoring the process, the process could be refined and improved over time. I'm sure that DL has experts in much of this (so I'm probably sounding very naive.)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Leslie_Duo

Thank you, DeeRamm, for your thoughtful response. I guess your description is more or less the way I thought that the translations either are or should work. I would hate to see DL do anything that discourages translators of any level from "taking a stab" at translating something. Isn't that one important way that we learn? I like your comment about the first translator providing a valuable service. Indeed. Then we all continually improve it from there, as long as we don't fear some sort of penalty for being a bit wrong.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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I don't think so.

Well, for the"real experts" thing, it would need (in some months, when Duolingo will teach hundreds of languages ;)) that the staff includes at least an expert speaker for each languages...

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DeeRamm
DeeRamm
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Well, if you want to produce a good product, you may have to include more than amateurs. The trick is to make your paid professional go a very long way. That's why I suggested input from staff on a sampling basis. For example they may see some work by a person that is excellent. Maybe that person can be given extra weight (maybe hidden) to influence the outcome of translations.

But, you can inject hard information in other ways as well. There was a long discussion a week or so ago on down voting, etc. Rating the translators came up in that. There I suggested that one could seed some translations with some very badly translated sentences. If a student marked those OK, then it would indicate that the was either clueless or playing games. Similarly, you could seed in some sentence that was superbly, professionally translated. If a student marked it wrong or clumsily altered it, you would, again, have some hard data about that student.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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Indeed, I recall the pleasant discussion, and personally I think they snatched our ideas, see how it conspicuously even shares a similar name, TT (Translation Tier vs Trusted Translators)

Anyway, I'm glad they did something similar, and I think your current idea makes sense, a small sample is feasible, and there are many universities or other institutions that I'm sure would gladly help. Also it isn't that much of a leap to have one language expert for each of the top 10 language, and the rest of the languages can be crowdsourced.

Heck it could even be stuck into recaptcha (evil laugh). Just have two sentences with possible translations, and tell people to write down or choose from the drop down menu the correct one, in addition to some random keyword.

If I was a staff member I would stick that into the registration process, "write down the sentence you think is right to make sure you are a human" (and correct our immersion sentences).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/anomalocaris

I did a lot of translating from French when I first joined (about a year ago), and with all the changes to the Immersion section since then, my work seems to have disappeared. So, I'm on Tier 1? is sad

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_pinkodoug_
_pinkodoug_
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Don't be discouraged by this. Since you were doing the French translations so long ago, it's not surprising that they may not count towards your current tier. Remember that the translations/Immersion system has undergone some major changes in the last year. The upvoting / downvoting system that's currently used has only been around since spring or early summer, so translations done with the old system wouldn't even have a vote history to apply retroactively.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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You're on TT2, in Portuguese - English. :)

P.S. I was on Tier 1 in French, with negative rank(-10) I uploaded and translated 2 articles and lo and behold within 5 hours I was in TT2.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/anomalocaris

^_^

I was kind of terrible at translating when I first started, so maybe I don't actually want to know what my rank would be if those early days were taken into account...but it's sad to see all my work vanish like that. Plus, I think most of those articles were finished, and now they're back at 0. Well, c'est la vie. :P

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/gitanomama

You should eliminate "looks wrong". I like to try my hand at translating and if someone does a better job, then I learn from it. I really like to try to do the first translation when I can find one available, even if it is a little hard for me, then I can learn from edits. But I am a competitive person, and like to succeed on this venue, too. I am afraid to do anything but "looks good" - which is a bit boring. What is the function of the up/down vote at the bottom? Do you need to have all this judgment going on?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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That is counter-intuitive, the voting is for liking or disliking an article, and you can't compete without somebody losing...

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/gitanomama

By competitive, I meant I like to succeed, and I realized I had been unclear. I don't need to have someone else lose. If I do well, that is enough. We should be able to get points or advance in level for doing well, but not lose points for trying above our pay grade when we try. This is about learning Spanish, not about getting promoted ahead of someone else.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ConaireMor
ConaireMor
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I think the 10 point reduction is too much, I previously used the down vote option to show when someones work wasn't good enough to get it, but maybe not terrible. Especially in instances when I knew I couldn't translate it better but I could tell that their translation didn't do the job well enough. You need a way to convey this or other general dissatisfaction (that doesn't mean "this translation sucks") since now I'm going to be very very careful down voting people.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sommerlied
sommerlied
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Awesome, I was hoping it becomes available to everyone soon. This is faster than I expected :D

Edit: I also very much like the double flag icons :) Will you add them to other parts of the site as well? Especially when we'll have more languages from the incubator, this would be nice to see which directions people are actually learning :D

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Wolhay
Wolhay
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Removal of 10 upvotes is very harsh. If a user makes a typo one out of ten times, his progress will be negative.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SD-77
SD-77
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People shouldn't downvote typos.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarbaraMorris
BarbaraMorris
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Right. They should just fix them.

I don't understand the purpose of downvotes for translation. If I know enough to say the translation is wrong, I should know enough to improve it, even if only a little bit.

I think they should just get rid of the downvote entirely.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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I disagree.

As I see it, the idea is to evaluate translators (by their translations) in order to give more weight to the votes of better translators. Because the goal at the end is to have the better translations.

So to do it you need to give reward when someone makes a good translation but, and maybe more of all, to "unreward" when someone makes a (really) bad translation (nonsense, countersense, basic grammar error, etc..). Not to punish them but to know that, for the moment, they're still not good enough for their votes.opinion to count too much.

So to do it, I don't see another than "downvoting" (but I agree Duo could/should explain when we are supposed to downvote, in which casses). And since downvoting are taken into account only for users of your "level" or better, then it seems more or less self-consistent.

In short: IMO, the purpose of downvotes is now to evaluate translators, not so much to evaluate the translation for itself.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Viaggiatore

I also have the impression that a downvote is really a comment about the translator. For me, that's an argument for omitting the names of translators, so that downvoting doesn't become a personal thing.

The "looks wrong" tab needs some work, I think. First of all, no translation is simply wrong. (If people are spamming with garbage, that should be treated as an abuse.) Even Google or a novice language learner will get some things right, so at what point is the translation "wrong"? I agree with those who say that we should correct imperfectly translated sentences instead of labeling them.

Maybe we're supposed to be commenting on the ability of the translator, but who wants to make judgments like that? People improve, and it depends on what material the person is asked to translate. There are times when I would like to be able to hit a tab that says "This person should learn something about history or geography" or "This person doesn't know much about English sentence structure" or "This person doesn't know what the Italian discussion is about." But first I think we need to be clearer about what "looks wrong" means.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thoughtdiva

That's a good idea to omit the names of translators for an unbiased approach.

I am confused about the purpose of downvotes. I can't actually see how they would improve translations. If it's wrong, edit it. If you don't know how to edit it, you're probably not qualified to judge it. If you don't have time to edit it, you are not very committed to the task and you should ignore it. If it's abusive/ lazy, report it.

The only time I think "looks wrong" may be warranted is when people obviously do not read comments that clarify the reason for a translation, and a translation keeps coming back that is clearly wrong. But, if it is used this way, the purpose of downvoting should be made very clear.

I agree with Luis's remark that most people on Duo have genuine good will, and certainly with Italian immersion I rarely find downvotes. But, if people don't know what they are for, they don't add much value in my opinion. I'd be interested to know how mathematical models can determine their value in improving translations.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SD-77
SD-77
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I think the downvotes are good if there are spammers and obviously improper and/or lazy work.
I guess some people just type randomly just to get more points. That's what I think the downvote should be used for.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarbaraMorris
BarbaraMorris
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That's what the reporting mechanism is for.

I wouldn't mind the downvote mechanism if it required the voter to say why, with choices like "Google translate", "Gibberish", "Unfinished", that get large downscores like -10, and choices like "Awkward", "Partially incorrect" that only get small downscores like -1.

And maybe if someone does too many minor downvotes without taking the time to make some corrections should start to pick up downvotes themselves.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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First of all I should indicate that for a particular language I had 12 downvotes and ~60 upvotes resulting on 0 overall tier points, and in my specific case I definitely deserved them (proof: http://imgur.com/AD4wQ6I). This is because I'm not that competent in that language, I mostly used the duobot, and tried to proofread to the best of my ability.

That's why I find it interesting that there is so much negativity regarding downvotes. The system was introduced a few hours ago, and I think users need to give it some time to fail/pass before handing down judgement.

No-one cared about how downvoting affected the translation of the document before. The moment a number or rank was assigned now everybody is vying to get the highest ranks and is worried. This is the competitive nature of humans I guess.

Personally, I think this is an excellent way to discourage or crush those Edit-Wars ( esp. Le Gateau).

Edit: I think the algorithm is just buggy in some articles, the Gateau($) article has so many sentences upvoted that it should be finished. Yet it is a good example of an article that no amount of downvoting will fix it at this point.

$(http://www.duolingo.com/translation/72dbedb57ef5bc5e9c23855c06b07f41)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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Eek! The most alarming thing about that thread is how many people can actually think cake is made of pastry!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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That discussion will never end, any Master Chef around to sort out the batter vs pasty debate? But I think Duolingo should study old articles that never seem to have a complete translation to determine what is the problem. That particular article is "well-liked", with over 1000 reviews and yet it still never completes.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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I'm no master chef but I do know that cake is made with a batter and pastry with a dough.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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Actually, having read beyond the first few lines I can now see that half the problem is flawed content in the original. If you're being told that apple crumble is cake, no wonder everything's going awry!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/aspielman
aspielman
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The gateau example is interesting - among other things it seems to show that good translation does not always conquer the bad.

For example despite all the iterations there are so many incorrect definite articles in the translation, where the translator has not understood that French nouns must normally take an article, including in many cases where an article is not properly used in English.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_undertoad

In order for this system to function properly i feel that people need to be encouraged to downvote. In addition, being downvoted needs to not seem like a very big deal to those who are beginners and are likely to get flak. It seems like the current system incentivizes upvoting by "experienced" translators. What if some highly ranked translator saw no point incentive in fixing a less than correct translation and instead chose (out of laziness) to up vote someone who didn't deserve to receive the credit? People will do this, I think.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/IG88
IG88
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I really hope this gets more people translating and soon. The Portuguese section seems barely alive.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Viaggiatore

Let me see if I understand. Suppose someone translates a very difficult sentence but leaves a typo. Someone else comes along and corrects the typo, which means that his/her "translation" is better and gets the up votes. If that's how it works, it will encourage us all to pick over someone else's translation instead of branching out on our own.

I'm a little unhappy if one down vote cancels ten up votes. It's a little reassuring if those down votes have to come from people higher on the totem pole than me. I just hope I don't have any enemies up there. But what does the person at the top of the pole do? Can he/she advance at all?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thoughtdiva

If the typo is minor, it often doesn't get noticed for a while, so you will probably still get upvotes. Also, the system might encourage people to try hard not to make typos. When I make typos I am happy when people correct them and I vote up the edit immediately. After all, if we are practising for commercial translations, it's pretty important to minimise the typos.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thoughtdiva

I don't think there's anyone higher than you in Italian, Viaggiatore! But this is something that has occurred to me too. If you have a high tier, you have to rely on a very select group of people noticing and voting up your translations. The higher you are, the harder it is to advance. We have to be nice to each other and vote each other up (if it is deserved, of course) :) Well, my votes don't count for you yet, anyway...

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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Due to all the concerns(complaints), it seems like the penalty has been reduced to five(5), so the typo business doesn't really matter. If all someone does is look for tiny mistakes, he/she will take a long time to advance, especially if someone gets annoyed and downvotes him/her for it.

It is also quite simple to detect this kind of behaviour with the algorithm, e.g. small edits (less than 3 characters edited), punctuation only edits, and so on. It will be obvious to the algorithm if someone has 50 consecutive edits of commas or full stops.Heck if it was me designing the algorithm, I would not award any points for such insignificant edits, and would award them instead to the original poster

I think people who complain about the downvoting probably never experienced it in university. I once recall a colleague had passed a test(had enough marks), and then the lecturer started negative marking ("downvoting") until he went below the 50% mark, and he ended up failing. This was a programming test, in which the code needed to be efficient, and reduce redundancy.

So while he did in fact get enough to pass, his code would have been a mess to maintain, causing him and other future colleagues a lot of problems reviewing his code. Indeed, he probably became a better software developer because of it.

This also true for translating, it is a very hard thing to do, and even experts struggle with it at times. Most of us have no formal training either in translation or in the language itself, yet some people expect to be rewarded for this ignorance.

That said, the person at the top can wait for others to reach his level before he can evolve. You can't have a grandmaster if there is no master, and you can't have an expert if there is no learner.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sernstberger
sernstberger
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Question: If you are in, say tier 3, would down-votes possibly bump you back down to tier 2? Or once you have made it to a tier, do you stay at least at that level?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mstreeter

No, your tier can never decrease.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sernstberger
sernstberger
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Thank you for the feedback! That's good news! I was nervous about messing up enough to drop down a tier.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sernstberger
sernstberger
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Would it be possible for us to see our tier and # of upvotes/downvotes in the Immersion section without opening an article first? Sometimes I would just like to see if I have any more upvotes, but right now I have to open one of my old articles to see that.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/IG88
IG88
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Yes! It's very annoying.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarbaraMorris
BarbaraMorris
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Reading through this thread, we have seen several reasons why having "looks wrong" is good.

  • Allows beginners to participate even when they aren't advanced enough to make a correction
  • Flag irrelevant translations like translating "1" to a full sentence
  • Flag translations that are word-for-word
  • Flag translations that are awkward
  • Flag translations that are taken directly from Google Translate
  • Disapprove of people reverting to their own bad translations

A single "looks wrong" button can't express all those things. So I think the person who clicks on "looks wrong" has to see a dialog where they can clarify what they mean. That will allow duolingo to do more reasonable tier-point adjustments.

For the first one, maybe the beginner should get a tier point. The current mechanism seems good that the person who did the translation shouldn't lose any tier points.

For the others, there should be varying tier-point penalties for the person who did the translation. There should also be a severe tier-point penalty for the person doing the vote if they don't immediately post a corrected translation, or re-revert. Or maybe the downvote should just be ignored in that case.

The programmer in me can't help being interested in finding ways to improve the "looks wrong" mechanism.

But as a participant in Immersion, a) I think getting "looks good" votes are sufficient for the competition aspect. I don't think we need a "looks wrong" button for any of the cases I listed. For most of them, we can just post a better translation, and add a crabby comment if we want to add a punishment. For the beginner case, is it really necessary to be able to click on "looks wrong"? If they can see the wrongness, they can make an attempt at a correction. And b) I don't care about the competition aspect anyway.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
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Excellent arguments, I agree with most of your assertions (being a programmer myself), except for one. Just because you know a sentence is wrong, you don't always know how to correct it, and worse in some cases we can't even explain what is wrong (it just sounds unusual or unnatural).

The same is true in teaching people a language or grammar, native speakers can often spot a mistake, however, in some cases they may not know how to correct it, and leaving the sentence "as is" will reduce the quality of the document.

I think your first resolution is very useful, I really don't know why the team hasn't implemented it yet. As a programmer and a researcher, I would think that it is immensely interesting if we can obtain some data about the most common mistakes beginners/novice translators make. They have actual data on edits, but not drilled down data on what exactly users think is wrong.

Indeed, there are so many research papers that could come out of statistics generated by those two buttons (with the small improvements you suggested) that it baffles me that the team hasn't tried this already. In addition, they could also improve the immersion based on statistical analyses of the collected data (e.g. validating perceptions vs empirical evidence).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/duelingmonkey

What if there are no more documents at my level to translate?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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Upload some.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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Yes. It isn't strikingly obvious when you first look at it, but no one puts the articles there for us, users have to find and upload them. Follow the link through to the Wikipedia site in the language you are learning on one of the completed (or wrong level) articles - it's top right on the screen when you are looking at something that has been taken from that site - and search for a topic that interests you that you feel you can cope with.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dtmedic
dtmedic
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I don't even do the immersions because on't really feel like I know enough about any of it to make a corrected translation (if one is needed) and am afraid to put MY own translations out there for fear some other ignorant (to Spanish) soul would think it was correct! I'm not sure how I should proceed...but I guess I just need to get out there and do a few.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hybridpro
hybridpro
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For someone who uses "Real-world practice" much more compared to Immersion, Iooks like no one else uses Real world practice. I have been using it quite sometime and got not a single up/down vote. And today I see myself getting much less points for translating, for e.g. a really big sentence that would get me about 15 points in the past is being offered for just 6 points, simply because there is no action in real-world practice and I land in tier 1. Really discouraging.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_pinkodoug_
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The real world practice button is immersion. It just auto-selects an article for you based on its estimate of your skill and adds the feature of displaying which words you have strengthened. Otherwise there is no functional difference between the two.

The auto-selection feature is probably what you have to thank for the lack of up/down votes. Often articles are chosen that are months old, and don't show up on the new/popular tabs, so they're practically invisible to most users.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
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Not really, it is not that they are old. The trouble is that only the first 3 translations of a given sentence can give him upvotes, in most cases most sentences have already been translated, checked, and are often good enough. My guess is that the user probably just clicks "looks good, looks bad", and moves on. This will generally not improve the user's TT rank.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_pinkodoug_
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Not really, it is not that they are old. The trouble is that only the first 3 translations of a given sentence can give him upvotes,

Where are you getting that from? It's true that only the first three ratings count for or against you, but there's nothing anywhere that I've found that states that only the first three translations earn points. I stand by what I said. In my experience, the auto-selection scheme is the culprit. It pulls from all available articles, not just what's currently popular, and as a result, you're more likely to get an old article. I just clicked "Real World Practice" (RWP) seven times and all but one of the articles were three months old or older. Those typically don't get seen by other users unless they happen upon them via RWP or some other accident, and so they get few if any votes one way or another.

My guess is that the user probably just clicks "looks good, looks bad", and moves on. This will generally not improve the user's TT rank.

Since he's complaining about the change in points awarded for translations in the same comment about upvotes and down votes, I think it's safe to assume that he's referring to votes/ratings for his translations.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hybridpro
hybridpro
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Well, I have been doing real world practice for portuguese for quite some time, and all articles come from a single source. So there has to be some difference between it and Immersion.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_pinkodoug_
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Pay attention to the age of the articles you're given in "Real World Practice" (RWP) by looking at the ages in the edit history. Try to work only on articles recently added, and you'll see your translations getting more ratings. I've stopped using RWP due to the age of the articles for the reasons that I described above.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hybridpro
hybridpro
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Kudos on the streak, Doug.and thx for the input. Although given the amount of points offered, I dont feel too excited about translating right now. I am back to translating subtitles.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/adesva
adesva
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One thing that should be reflected over is how to handle people jumping into articles translating subject lines only - or the likes - in order to get simple points.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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On the other hand, if you don't translate those bits it keeps popping up in lists as an article with material still to translate - so sometimes people get fed up with it and fill them in to make it go away!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/corpsy

Dawn, I'm downvoted because some people don't know that the musical notes (A B C D and so on) need to be translated in french (Do Ré Mi Fa and so on).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
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This (http://i.imgur.com/NEdqN8E.png) is why serious downvotes are necessary. How exactly do you translate the number 1 to all that text?

Worst of all there were 5 people who upvoted that "correction of the translation".

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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It's the highlighter. Sometimes the highlight sits on what are set as two or three separate sections, so you can be blithely typing away to match the highlighted text and realise afterwards that it only wanted you to translate the first bit. Not the user's fault, I don't think, that one - it isn't always obvious the first time it happens.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/chickering

I really like the new tier system. But marking translations "looks wrong" feels kind of mean to me now. I don't like the idea that I'm taking points away from people. It doesn't seem to jive with a spirit of cooperation that should be a part of these collaborative translations.
So, why is it necessary? Why not have downvotes = 0 points?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/plurallingo

Nice. Needed some motivation for the immersion section.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/adamchalupa

Although I have not started translating yet... I already feel the dread of battling it out with someone who thinks their translations are better than mine... What about a model that keeps track of the amount of downvotes casted, that scales with the portion given within a given time period? Say, 5 or 3 upvotes for the first downvote, then 2 for the second, then one for the third until the next day or next translation the user himself has submitted gets upvoted.

Just a thought.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hehahn
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I did some reading here yesterday and decided to try my hand at some of the simpler translating. This morning, I had 14 upvotes and 1 downvote. One user had made two nice improvements. The changes were better, and I was impressed with the way the system worked.

However, one user changed "In December of the same year, they separated." to "In december of the same year they get separated." I checked the history, and this is the third time this user has made what is obviously an incorrect translation for this same sentence. (They were the original translator of this sentence as well.)

Is there something in the system to prevent someone from coming back again and again to downvote the correction and restore their incorrect translation? I put it back the way it should be, but If this user continues to downvote and restore their mistake, it seems difficult to maintain continuous improvement.

Can you direct me to the "submit this sentence for peer review" button?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
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Yes, that person either doesn't know the correct grammar, or is just out to annoy you, you could leave a comment, telling the person the right way to write it, but I doubt it'll change anything. You can report the user using the button in the immersion shown in this link (http://i.imgur.com/C3oNU8L.png)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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There is no such a thing as "submit this sentence for peer review".

the better thing to do is to explain you're change/correction in comment. Did you do it? Then if the user change it back each time without explaining why... You can first try to write to her/him on her/his stream. And if nothing change then, "à contre-cœur", you could report the user to Duolingo for abus...

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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I wish there was that submit sentence to peer review, it could be sent to all learners of a language, and if they wish they vote on the most accurate translation. This would be the simplest way of ending the Edit-Wars.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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"All learners"... quite a spam no? ;)

Well a submit to peer review that would create a discussion, where you have all the suggested translations and can't reply but just vote for one, and maybe send an email to all contributors to the article (the other user would see it by navigating in the forum), could be part of a solution.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
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Not necessarily, it could be just like a notification you get from Duolingo for receiving lingots after a streak. It would just notify the users that there are XX sentences that need review with a link to a tab in immersion, where all sentences needing review are shown.

Maybe the other requirement would be for at least 3 or 5 people to request the review.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
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@jrikhal: no I didn't mean sending any email, just a notification in Duolingo. Using the stream..

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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[Answer to Dessamator's comment beginning with "@jrikhal: no I didn't mean sending any email"]

Ah, ok! In this case I don't have any objection. ;)

But, we would need to be able to select to show in the stream only caterogies of notifications. I mean, some checkbox to quickly switch between showing only "notifications of an answer to a discussion one follow", "notifications of an answer to a comment one made", "notifications of a new translation in an immersion article one follow", "notifications of a new translation of a sentence one translated", "notification of peer review request" etc...

Because for the moment I almost never go to my stream, because there are too much things and I can't sort them. So I prefer to follow the e-mail notification only.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jrikhal
jrikhal
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Well my "spam" thing is that, as I understand your suggestion, Duo would send an e-mail to every learner of the language XXX from the language YYY... When, in the example of lingots, only one user receive a given e-mail...

But I like the rest of the idea.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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You are on to something positive. Please, let us know what you work out.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Snappy518

In my opinion, downvotes should only count when some one does it and correct your sentence. But they can always correct your sentence without downvote your effort. I think the system will run just fine this way i'm sharing with you.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Briefly. It's clear many are interested in the 'tier'. My view 1) I don't know what all the hype is ovef points. 2) Having wrong edits replace correct ones is my big issue. Hope there is some solution. 3) I'll go on as always. Thanks for the opportunity to learn languages and practice translations.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarbaraMorris
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About the tier, I don't care about my tier either. But I find myself already feeling cautious about how my actions might affect people who do care about their tier. For example, today, after reading this discussion, I was thinking about how just adding a missing period will make me the recipient of the points for the otherwise good translation. I'm ashamed now that I didn't do the edit.

You're right about the issue with wrong edits replacing correct ones being a much much bigger issue.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thoughtdiva

You could upvote a translation and then still edit it. In fact, I think I might start doing this sometimes, to give credit for well-thought-out translations that are missing punctuation or whatever.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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@barbaraMorris & thoughdiva Well I just tried that. Upvoted something then edited a typo with the result that the whole sentence came up with my name. Do we know if the original translator got the credit for the upvote? Made me feel pretty creepy seeing my name for someone else's work. Just posted the question on the Discussion board.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thoughtdiva

I understand you feeling "creepy" about your name being attached, but it's pretty easy for people to see who did the bulk of the translation if they click on "show more".

I think it's worse that my name is attached if I have just reverted to someone else's translation. I always add a comment crediting the original translator, but I think this should be automatic, e.g. "thoughtdiva reverted to johnsmith". I have a feeling they are working on it, because Luis publicly supported changing the system, and they abandoned their last attempt to change it, which made it look like the original translator reverted to their own translation.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Yes, I have sometimes (but not always) credited the original translator. Will be more conscientious in the future. And the good news that it might be made automatic is very welcome.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thoughtdiva

Yes, if you edit, your name will be attached to the edit, but I don't see why your upvote for the original translation with the typo would not count. I can't think of an easy way to check though.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Yes, that sounds right. That's why I posted the question on the Discussion board. But I really think you are on to something.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ernestd

I still think the UI/UX in the immersion section needs something as unique and original as in the lessons but I can't say what. It is just a feeling...

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/arekolek
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I don't actually get the idea of "looks wrong", if someone knows it's wrong and takes the time to evaluate that and mark it as such, then I'd think it would be straightforward for him to fix it. Otherwise, if he's unable to tell what exactly is wrong, his opinion is not that much of a value.

Anyway I'd suggest to make downvoting not only subtract 10 points from the downvoted person's tier, but also deduct 1 or 2 points from the tier of the downvoter, as to make sure that people who downvote really mean it, and really want the translation to be better, and aren't just thinking "it looks wrong, well, I don't know what I'm doing but I will mark it wrong". Unless that's what you're after (introducing more uncertainty). In that case I'd suggest to void the -10 point penalty if no better translation is found, or if more people vote it's good.

In the current state it's a bit discouraging to edit translations.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/bknckn
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I think the "looks wrong" option is actually a very good one for someone who is at a beginner level in the language. In general, one of the problems with the translation tab is that it's very hard to learn enough from the tree alone to use it effectively--you really have to have outside experience with the language to produce a good translation. However, it is easy to note that a sentence is not grammatical or natural-sounding English, even if you don't understand the original sentence well enough to produce a better version. This can help flag overly-literal translations or improve ones produced by people whose own native language is not English.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/arekolek
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This case implies the evaluator is (or at least should be) at a lower tier than the translator, and that this vote wouldn't affect upvotes of the translator.

Is there a case where a person with a higher tier downvote a translation instead of fixing it, with a good reason, and not just out of laziness/unwillingness/lack of motivation?

PS It's a valid reason however, I think it worked for me, before the introduction of tiers, now I don't want to downvote people just because something "looks wrong" (but I lack knowledge to fix it, or even say with confidence that it really is wrong).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/bknckn
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I definitely agree that this means they ought to be at a lower tier--I just don't have a ton of confidence that this would usually be the case. There's so many relatively simple sentences out there to translate--which is awesome, it means that everyone can participate!--that having done a large number of sentences (and therefore increasing your tier) doesn't necessarily mean you can translate complex sentences or that you have a good ear for idiom.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/bknckn
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Would there be some way to take a user's skill level in the tree into account when calculating tiers? Or at least display skill level by their name alongside their tier? Not to determine how many points to award, but simply to help other users estimate how much to defer to their judgements. It seems to me that, while experience and practice is definitely key for developing translation skill, someone whose overall familiarity with the language is more extensive might have the advantage over someone who has translated a large number of simple sentences.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/peyton1999

Where can I find this on the duolingo website? I would love to try it out!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/peyton1999

Never mind, I found it. Please rate my translation! http://www.duolingo.com/#/translation/ea2a3ae8f376969d4a70e45739d9e3a4

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MarkosGoulet

I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I'm too lazy right now to read through all the comments. 10, or even 5 points being deducted per 1 downvote is too extreme. Can you imagine a troll running through and downvoting everything in sight? My suggestions are that either a trolling prevention measure is established, or downvotes only reduce 2, if not simply 1 point(s).

Taking away more points from a downvote than gaining points from an upvote is a good idea. It'll discourage people from making lazy translations. But consider how that can be abused.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Wanna laugh? It seems I started to write s/thing left it but unconsciously hit "Post" The Post read: "We" one word.

It got five downvotes. Some people just shouldn't be in the vicinity of a downvote check. Of course the upvote is right next to it. Says alot!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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Maybe you need a "are you sure?" button when translating 20 words to one single word, I doubt there are many cases where one word would translate to a huge sentence or vice versa.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarbaraMorris
BarbaraMorris
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Maybe downvoters should have to be at least at tier 2 before their votes cause a loss of tier points; it seems unlikely that a troll would do enough actual translations to reach that level. Or, maybe the downvote rule should say that the voter has to be at a higher tier than the translator rather same tier or higher.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Turkeyphant
Turkeyphant
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Luis, I'm glad I found this post. I have a few queries about tiers and votes that no-one has been able to answer. I'm hoping that, as the fons et origo, you might be able to offer some insight as the published documentation is very ambiguous at present.

I've already established the following:

  1. Votes are limited by the length of the sentence. Up to a maximum of 3 votes per sentence.
  2. Votes are "used up" once you ascend a tier. You can't reallocate votes favourably. Presumably this is the same for shared votes however they work.
  3. Up to two votes for shared credit translations trickle down to the original translator.
  4. Shared votes are limited to a maximum of two per sentence regardless of the length.

Here are my questions:

a) Re: point 3, is this net or gross upvotes and is there a similar limit for downvotes? b) Re: point 3, what if you are tier 10 and someone edits your translation who is tier 6. Then one person at tier 7 upvotes the new translation followed by one at tier 12, then one at tier 9 and one at tier 8. Do you gain 1 vote, 2 votes or a different number? c) Re: point 3, what if you are at tier 1 and someone at tier 6 edits your translation and shares credit. Then one person at level 1 and one person at level 2 upvote the new translation. Do you get zero votes or two votes? d) Re: point 1, is this the first three votes or three positive votes maximum? e) Re: point 1, what about negative? f) Re: point 3, how many levels can shared votes trickle down?

Thanks for your time!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/H-3000
H-3000
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Hi, my tier in German seems to be calculated falsely. I am on level 1 with 23 tiers - alone in one long document I have more than 50 upvotes in the first 3 paragraphs. Could you please have a look at that? thanks.

Great work, by the way.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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It only counts the first three votes for any piece of text and they have to be from people with more points than you to count for anything.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/H-3000
H-3000
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thanks, luscinda, for your explanation. still that doesn't seem to be right in the mentioned document. or did you mean there can only be 3 votes for the whole text in total?

here is the document: https://www.duolingo.com/translation/86f920b60bbbe1fab9e486c34be3ab21

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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Holger, my understanding is that you can have up to three votes towards your tier for each piece of the jigsaw, but that you can have 90 votes for a section and it will still count for nothing if they are not from the right people - those on the same tier or above. Only the first three votes from that group of people will count. But you know as much as I do.

Now here's a query for the powers that be - why am I logged out when I follow the link to another part of the site? I'm sure on other sites if a new tab is opened within the site I'm still 'me'.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/VStarTraveler
VStarTraveler
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Luis, as someone who has barely gotten his toes wet in the immersion/translation experience, I have a question. The guidelines state "You advance to the next tier when sentence translations last edited by you receive a total of 100 net upvotes from other learners in your tier (or higher)." Does this mean "last edited by you AT THE TIME OF A LEARNER'S VOTE?" or does a tiny edit by someone else wipe out any votes your translation might have received to that point? Of course, after someone else edits it, I believe they would be getting any further votes, but as a novice translator, if it is the second option, I suspect that I and many others doing our best to get a sentence as close as possible for that final little edit by someone else will be Tier 1 translators for a long, long time no matter how many sentences we translate! Thank you for your excellent work and your response.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/richardbk

I would really like to see some really easy translating material. Really basic stuff because under "easier" there is no way I can do almost all of it.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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How do I see what has been down voted (Looks wrong) ?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/skeez1960

Down votes seem unnecessary since users can supplant a given translation at any time with their own submission. It would be interesting to know if down votes actually contribute to better results.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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Couldn't agree more. See www.duolingo.com/comment/1105259 for a way to bypass downvotes and still improve translations. Let's hope DL changes the downvote system.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jbrener

What are the arguments against requiring explanations of downvotes? As pointed out by several contributors to this discussion, if they are not explained downvotes can be a disincentive to learning and serve little useful purpose.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ColonelSteiger

The 5 to 1 ratio still sucks. and am I to understand that a downvote from someone on my tier is worth more than an upvote from someone similarly situated or does the downvote have to be from someone on a higher tier?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kassandra8286
kassandra8286
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Downvotes count only if they are from someone at a higher tier than you. Upvotes count if they are from someone at or above your tier.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tariqnisarahmed

A lot of thoughtful stuff here.

I think upvotes and downvotes should both be weighted. The formula should increase the weight based on both the person's skill level in that translation course and their translation tier rating for that language.

Experience in other languages should not count, though positive experience in translating other languages could be factored in at a lower level.

One hundred positive votes from novices should not help anyone as much as 10 votes from high-tier translators.

Solitary downvotes should only have strong effects if from toptiered translators, and there really should be a differentiation in buttons. "Great" "No complaints" "Feels off" and "Ugly."

If there were four options like that, the middle two could be weighted at zero -- neither up nor down. The two stronger reactions could earn or cost points.

I have been away from immersion for a while because I rely on iOS to interact with Duolingo. Safari makes even comments like this one hard. Immersion for me will have to wait till the app upgrade(s).

But congrats to all the Tier Three's and above! Keep up the good work!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Danmoller
Danmoller
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Hey! I like this system very much.

But what about people who downvote our translations when they are RIGHT?

Isn't there a way to contest that downvote? That's very bad.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jeanprendiville

In my experience another problem is a number of editors who specialise in reworking the work of others, adding a comma in English which is not in the original French and is unnecessary, or making changes like the " flu of 1918" to the " 1918 flu" or vice-versa depending on the original. Their only interest is their tier. Fortunately there are also excellent editors who are interested in helping others and themselves to improve. I can't see a solution to this problem but they certainly reduce the pleasure of translating.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/EricMller1

Maybe someone can explain - I couldn't find a clear explanation yet: I got the up and down votes for sentences I've translated. But what are the reward points I'm getting for translated words? Are they also helping to advance to a higher tier? And if not, what are they good for?

Also, someone else said that it wouldn't be hard to make up for the 10 points being lost when being downvoted, as new upvotes would come quickly. Well, I absolutely disagree. Here's why: I'm new to this immersion part of duolingo but about a week ago, I was the first person to translate a text and since it was only about two sides long, I decided to completely translate it... Not one single person has done anything to it ever since. No upvote, no downvote, no corrected translation... nothing. So, although that were about 900 words and thus possibly 180 upvotes (if I got at least that vote system right), I got nothing out of it. Not a single vote. And that is quite discouraging - especially when thinking of how fast I could lose potential votes again.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarbaraMorris
BarbaraMorris
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I agree, it's disheartening when you translate a lot of something, or all of it, and nobody else ever even visits the article.

I tend to avoid even looking at articles that are completely translated, since I would only be reviewing someone else's translations. I don't mind reviewing, but I also like to start some sentences myself. So, assuming other people feel the same way, I'd suggest you don't actually complete the article the first time you visit it. Just do say a third of it, and not necessarily the first third, since that might put people off too. And then, after someone else starts working on it, you can review their translations, and do some more of your own. Or even better, find an article that people are currently working on, and translate some of the sentences. And make some changes; no matter how skilled some of the mega-tier translators are, they still sometimes make mistakes.

I think with Immersion, the real reward is just the fun of translating, and especially collaborating with others on translations when several people revise and revise the same sentence and it gradually gets better and better. If you get too caught up in votes and tiers, I think you will lose out on what can be a great experience.

Another benefit of Immersion that I was a bit surprised by The very first time I did Immersion, it took me several hours to translate just one sentence, because I had to do so much googling and reading through the Spanish/English dictionary pages. But when I got back to the daily lessons the next day, I was amazed at how much easier it seemed. That still happens to me sometimes. If I spend a lot of time in Immersion, no matter what the topic of the article is, I find I have made sudden jumps in my ability to understand and remember Spanish words and phrases.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/EricMller1

Well, thanks for your reply. Unfortunately theres still the mystery about these reward/skill points.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jaye16
jaye16
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At the top of your Immersion page, you'll find a bar and some numbers showing how many xps you've received on that particular sentence. Depending on your activity:e.g. up/down vote, edit, translate etc. This has nothing to do with your tier it only goes towards your level.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/EricMller1

At the top of my immersion page there's only the tier bar. So I assume you mean that XP bar on top inside a document to translate, right? And this XP is added up to the general XP (and therefor also the level) I'm at in that certain language? So that's how this works... well, ok. Thanks.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kcheng0222

What is the link for the immersion section?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/n.a.k.k.y

how do i remove the translation tier on my profile? i removed my spanish course and it still keeps showing up. duolingo should make removing the tiers available in the settings. :(

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mihijamaria

I've advanced through Immersion to Tier 3 in Spanish in approximately three weeks. That said, I had a translation voted down because of a comma and one preposition. I sent a link to the "unofficial" Immersion Guidelines to the person who did this. It surprised me because they were at Tier 5 and I'd have thought they'd have known better? And then I saw that this person was at level 14 on the tree which is below where I am. I've noticed several times that people are at a high tier on Immersion but are not that far along on the day-to-day practice of skills? What's up with that? I really think that EVERY person using Immersion needs a daily reminder of what merits a "looks wrong" vote.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tankionlineen

i am really sad,because i was only one looks good away from tier 4 and then i got downvoted!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ThyGamingPerson

how many up votes do you need when you get 1 down vote

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FelipeReisSilva

Each upvote is 1 point. Each downvote is minus 10 points.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ThyGamingPerson

thanks

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AR_Elsherbiny
AR_Elsherbiny
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How can I participate in this translation thing? is it still available?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mitchell.parron

10 point deduction. really? c'mon! wayyyy to much!!!! :(

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MikaelHandigdo
MikaelHandigdo
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So, does translator tier mean that we contribute a translation?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AR_Elsherbiny
AR_Elsherbiny
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Yes

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bobognil

Unfortunately i dont have immersion even though everyone else does.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JunkoEnoshima725

where do we go to translate, i can't seem to find it.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RussianWombat

So is the upvote/downvote, the arrow things at the bottom left of each post?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/annwitbrock
annwitbrock
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Very disappointed to see immersion has gone away. An up vote was a good idea. It didn't need a contradicting down vote. Progress is a better aim. A query vote could have helped, but both should have accumulated separately. We could have seen all the translations and up-voted our preferred one. Penalties and gaming it seem like a mistake, but losing the space to practice on real text and give feedback is sad. I kept hoping other languages would have an immersion some day.

I just tried the labs, and a story approach is good, but the real text was better. What I really want is to find some kids' adventure stories to read in other languages, and some easy articles - suitable for mid-tree consumption when I want to push and test myself.

I'm finding it too easy in the tree to mentally piece things together in English after a rough guess at the meaning, and so it's not making it into memory, and sticking as a coherent other language event. Context is important to start thinking in a connected way in any language.

I'm also wishing more vocab lists were available to browse for revision. I don't mean flash cards, I want lists. Especially when I've had to take a break, or have gone too long before revising.

Pleased to be able to see grammar tips and notes on more devices now too. It would be good to also have that as a collected reference, to make it easier to check back after a while.

1 year ago