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- "Где цирк?"
152 Comments
I translated this as "Where is a circus?" Is there no definite article "the" in Russian, or is it skipped often?
Is there any way to differentiate between a definite and indefinite subject then?
Context. It's rarely asked "Where is a circus?", but "Where is the circus?" Makes much more sense here.
Sure, but still it doesn't mean that "where is a cicus" is wrong. Within certain context, it is correct. It's not our fault that Duolingo doesn't provide the context.
But since there's no real distinction, as long as you know the translation you're good. Context is super important in Russian because sentence structure can be so fluid.
One may say "Где этот цирк?" if she means some specific circus or if she was looking for if for a long time and was irritated by this. In Russian you can say "этот" not only about objects near you but about some specific/selected object even far star which you point at: "посмотри на эту звезду" (look at that/the star).
I don't see reason for confusion, you can skip most of articles in english as well, and no one would be confused what you are trying to say. As I did in first sentence. Problem is this app forces you to type it in english even tho it makes no sense.
You can't skip articles in English. The two sentences where you skipped them sound very wrong. In fact, they sound like they would be spoken by a Russian who hasn't yet mastered English.
I think the point of Ellablun wasn't that skipping articles is grammatically correct, but that you often don't even need articles in English to understand what a person wants to say. Because some people were stating that the content of Russian sentences is harder to comprehend because of the lack of articles. I would agree that it's rather a matter of habit than actual lack of context. Perhaps not in every case but generally speaking.
737
I know it's been two years but I just wanted to point out that articles are often omitted in user manuals. So that's one semi-official case where it happens.
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Chatbert
That is because many manuals are written by non native English speakers. The editors of the manual are often concerned about brevity more than elegant looking explanations.
clearly you don't live in 21st century then, internet is filled with skipped articles.
Whoever on the internet skips articles sounds like they don't speak English as a first language. That's the fact of the matter. Furthermore, stuff you happen to hear around the internet should be the opposite of a source on proper English.
If you can find any reputable real source that says that omitting articles is EVER acceptable in proper English, feel free to share it.
People probably would still understand you when the article is left out but in English, it is grammatically incorrect
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Yes and no. We sometimes omit/don't require an article, like eg "I love nature" but in French there would be an article. In other languages too. I know what you meant, but you mustn't mislead people into thinking that English always requires the article.
If you REALLY wanted to stress that it's A (noun) that you're talking about, you could use один/odin (one).
For example: I went with one/a friend to the mall.
I'm not a native speaker, though, so I can't say when exactly you should do or not do this.
That is correct! If you are telling about some people you know but your interlocutor doesn't know it you may just say "заходил вчера к одному другу" (Yesterday I visited a friend).
Do they ever use the number one for the indefinite substitute like in other languages?
You CAN do it, but I don't know exactly when a native would or wouldn't do this. Sorry I can't be of more help. :(
NO ARTICLES??? ARE YOU SERIOUS???? lol im going to loose my freaking mind!!!!
Honestly, I like the lack of articles. It makes everything simpler. If there were articles, you'd have to learn a whole bunch of different declensions for them.
If you use an indefinite article in English, you are much more likely to say "where is there a circus".
I had this same question when learning Serbian. I learned to speak it first, and the writing didn't make sense. It is the same word. It's like "Gid'yeh" but really soften the i and y (they really aren't there, but it helps mentally). Pronounce the г entirely, your brain wants to cut it short because there's not a vowel following. Then do the same with the д - your brain wants to stop, but pronounce all of it. You almost pronounce the "eh" twice - once to "end" the д and once for the е itself.
I think, English speakers can pronounce something like "dog day" or "bag douche". The technique is rather similar.
In English, if you say "bag" on its own, you can stress the G like "bag-uh" but when followed by some consonants like D, we limit the G to touching the backs of our tongues to the roofs of our mouths without emphasis before rolling the tongue so that only tip of the tongue is touching. If we isolated this technique to just the G to D sound, the G would sound almost silent. That's why we do the awkward "guh-duh" sound when we see those letters in isolation.
At least that's my understanding of it.
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Yes, [do]g-day or [ba]g-douche are a good idea, but for где, I think one should prepare the tongue for the soft д, and perhaps "dear" would be better, as in [ba]g-dear. Still not good enough. Ah yes, better to use the French "dis" as in dis-moi: [ba]g-di_s, or to be totally French, [ba]_gue-di_s. what do you think? The i vowel isn't quite right, but I think the D makes a good approximation. Oh, what about "d'hier"? [ba]_gue d'hie[r]?
As a korean I am happy to know that there are neither definite nor indefinite article in Russian♡♡♡ korean also doesn't have them
First time i met korean ...happy to meet you seonmi ...no matter in comments
Look for the thing that resembles a cafe. Apparently they're difficult to differentiate.
В городе.
«в город» is used when you mean direction of movement ("Мы завтра едем в город").
You could use: это or один... If you desperarely want to use something resembling the or a\an. But, Russian language doesnt use the and a/an just as you can see clearly a lack of 'is' in the sentences.
i was confused about this myself and found this link that may be of some help: http://russianmentor.net/gram/mailbag/topics/article1.htm
For "speak this type of sentence" please put pronounce option in slow speed,,
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Okay, I'll weigh in--American born so you know my birth language. The comments on this simple question are a riot! I'm in my 80's, studying with Duo to hopefully defeat the Alzheimer's specter in my family. The French demand the articles that Russia discaards. So what--Et alors ? Zut ! We're all here to have some fun and learn things. Mental exercises are food for the mind. Au revoir, mon amis !
How the HECK do you pronounce цирк?! I said it how the lady does and I guess I said it wrong all 3 tries???
Is there a way to implement a feature in which there is an english proncunciation of the russian words?
Just to be accurate.
I don't understand the fuss about articles. Be happy there are no articles in Russian! :) I am for sure! :D
French has articles literally everywhere and they always need to be changed according to the genus (same as adjectives, some are even irregular). If you think Russian's lack of articles is confusing you, try French. ;) German is similar, though a tiny bit less extreme. It just makes it much more difficult to learn a language. English is a lucky exception where articles aren't gendered, it's just a/an/the.
However, translating a sentence grammatically correct, not exactly word by word is very usual when learning a language, also in school. Just because "where is circus" is grammatically correct in Russian, "where is the/a circus" remains the only correct sentence and therefore translation in English. When you translate "pomme de terre" from French to English, you would also say "potato", not "apple of the earth".
Yes, so to speak. But only the grammatical one referring to all objects, not only persons. I assumed the latin word "genus" for grammatical gender is also used in English.
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I have never heard "genus" used in the sense of "gender". And "gender" was a grammatical term long before it was appropriated as a politically correct term for sex as conditioned by society.
Not everyone taking the course is a native speaker of English OR knows grammar terms in English. Jenny243542 probably did not have a lot of experience talking about grammatical gender in English (similarly, native speakers of Russian rarely know verbs of motion, and their knowledge of productive verb paradigms and verb conjugation barely scratches the surface).
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Tails637948
Forget about using Duo to learn to speak a foreign language. It isn't designed to do that so the little bit of attention given to it is feeble. There are programs that involve a lot of speaking which is essential to learning to speak the language. Dou isn't one of them.
Duo uses translation exercises to expose you some vocab, grammar and word order. It is all about reading and some writing. You will never, ever learn to speak a language using Duo. They don't try to teach you to do that.
The point of the vocal exercises provided by Duo is to warn you not to practice mispronouncing words in your head. The more accurate your efforts to say the word the better you will be able to read and spell it which is what they are teaching. But Duo devotes little time, money and effort into making the vocal part work well. It is not even a secondary consideration for them.
There are other programs on the internet that offer assistance with learning to speak foreign languages. Just know that if you are not in an immersion situation you will have to spend a couple of hours a day for years to develop any real speaking skills. Of course if all you want is touristy survival skill level that is much easier to achieve. ...Where is the post office, how much does that cost, where is the bus stop, where am I, help, My name is, Your documents?.... Get used to hearing and having to respond to that last one
Focus on learning to read and write the language and then when you are in a situation you consider practical to learn to speak it, you will already have done more than half the effort needed.
Turn off the mike and you can move on right away.
Without an article, is there a way to stress that you want to know where any noun is as opposed to a specific one? Such as if the context isn't really obvious?
I am not sure, really—some speakers of English say that "Where is a bathroom?" or "Where is a circus?" sounds weird while some ask how would you say that in Russian (the question does not make much sense to me). Personally, if I was looking for any object of the kind, I'd use "Excuse me, I am looking for a ****" , only in Russian (Извините, я ищу ... ).
Maybe something like "Excuse me, is there a .... here?", which is less normal in English (Извините, а здесь есть ... ?).
"Is there a..." is a very common way of speaking in English. I actually suggested it to someone further up this thread! If there are any здесь есть sentences in this course, that would be the best translation.
Well, there are other ways to ask for that in English, like "Where do I find XXX?", which can be translated into Russian (Where do I find → Where to find → Где найти ...?), but this time round will not be idiomatic in Russian.
How does one pronounce где? I tried to listen to various sources (youtube, google translate, duolingo) but I keep getting it wrong. Any tips?
"Gid'yeh" but the i and the y are very soft. Your mind wants to stop pronouncing the G before it is finished, because it is followed by a consonant instead of a vowel. Same with the D sound. It might help to practice "кидя" (kid yeah) then "к(и)дуе" (could ya?) then "кде" (kiddah) then "где" HTH
It frustrates me that I have to write the articles in English because for me it's easier to just live without articles (because mynative language doesn't use them neither). It's hard to put articles to where there are none!
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Out of interest, bobylob, is yours a slavic language? I'm curious to know what other language has no articles. I'm learning Arabic, and it only has ONE article, the definite article. That's really complicated!
Stop adding the in russian! There would be another word in the sentence for the... And its not here
Russian doesn't have direct equivalents for "the" and "a." "Where is circus?" is not a grammatical sentence in English, so it should definitely not be accepted.
Gray keep your opinions on other languages to yourself, you're not a native speaker so your ideas are complete nonsense
I'm not quite sure what you mean. If you're talking about English, it's my native language, so of course I know that "Where is circus?" is not grammatically correct. All singular, countable nouns need an article before them.
If you're talking about Russian, it's not an opinion I hold that Russian does not have direct equivalents to the indefinite and definite articles that we have in English. It's just a fact of the language that any source would agree with. Just look up "does Russian have articles" on Google or ask any native speaker; everyone would agree.
My Russian level is certainly not very high at all, but I would not comment on this issue if I weren't absolutely certain about it. The lack of articles is one of the first things Russian learners find out about.
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I think you could even be more assertive. It's not just that, as you say, "Russian does not have direct equivalents to the indefinite and definite articles that we have in English", Russian simply does not have any articles.
I haven't tried that, but I don't understand how that's relevant to my previous comment. "Where is a circus?" does not sound like a very natural sentence that someone would say in real life, but since it grammatically makes sense, I can see why it could be accepted.
Then try it, why are you coming and complaining when you haven't even tried everything
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It is very difficult to understand what your point is. Presenting it in an unpleasant manner only serves to make it less clear.
Since everything Gray has been saying is correct it is hard to figure out why you are so extreme in your response.
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You are well named, roarofthedragon. Roaring to no purpose. It is difficult to see why Gray_Roze has so raised your ire.
You actually cannot translate this sentence with definite 'the' in there. It's incorrect
I hover over the Russian word for circus because I don't even know how to spell it in English
The alphabet is definetely different, but the sounds are so similar to Polish.
Я не понимаю почему так в подсказке не было артикля the!!! Почему так !?!?!?!(да я отлично знаю русский , а прохожу его просто так)))
I am translating whrs circus and are you in metro? Quite a long time. Its not stopping only. What to do? Till when to continue? Plz help
For quite a long time I am translating whr is circus and are you in metro? Next text is not coming only.
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Bryce, yes, for ц, or you could have said "cats in" and leave out the "ca" of cats. ц is not actually difficult for an English speaker. It's simply "ts", but we don't start a word with it.
Not sure if it's just my microphone but I cannot get сирк. I have tried every pronunciation but I simply cannot get it to register. Shame. Im saying Sea-oourk, is that fine?
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Newsha_FT
You can understand it in the sense that the Russian language doesn't use the in the way the English speakers do. Russian speakers don't expect to see anything that fulfills the function of the in this sentence.
However English speakers get anxious when articles that they expect to see are left out in sentences. So Duo not only allows but encourages you to pretend that the is in the sentence just for your ease of mind.
Since the computer has to mark you on your understanding of the Russian sentence you are required to provide an answer that makes sense in English while staying as close as possible to the Russian. English speakers don't see sentences without the appropriate articles as making sense.
Say "cats," then say "ats," then say "ts." A lot of us have a hard time pronouncing ts at the beginning of a word. This is roughly "tsirk" a lot.of people pronounce it as "sirk" which is incorrect. Think about a tsunami (v. A "sunami")
Yall are say there is no "The" but i hear people say the in Russia all the time
I'm kind of confused because the first part of the sentence is too fast, and I'm confused on how to pronounce it, if anyone can help I appreciate it
They use the same phrase , it changes the modal when they ask question.
I only started learning from scratch yesterday evening and have no clue what a "modal" is?
Thanks, that was what I was listening for and I heard no change of tone, maybe it'll come with practice?
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If the French Duo is any indication, it is not easy to learn subtle tones with Duo. Pair up troublesome words and place them in Google translate to hear them right beside each other.
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You're right, veganpanda. The voice is unnecessarily monotonous. The fact is that this sort of question (beginning with a question word) descends in pitch towards the end. And of course you'll get better with practice.
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I've never come across "modal" to mean "tone". I think the word is intonation. I believe "tone" is used with reference to Chinese, where each word has its own tone.
There is the "где" (where) in the beginning which shows us that it is a question.
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Indeed. Russian has a different system of intonation for questions. But где means "where", so it must be a question.
So I mispelled цирк as сирк and I'm wondering what the difference between ц and с is?
С is s sound. Ц is ts sound. Say cats without the c or the a. e.g. цунами ;)
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You have just learned that Russian is different from English. English speakers like using articles. Russian speakers don't.
there is no the in the Russian language, so to say where is circus is correct, but they make you add the, making it incorrect and insisting that it is
Because your translation into English is wrong. The english language uses "the" always, so including it is necessary even as it is not used in Russian. No English speaker would say "where is circus" however it is a common mistake of speakers of languages like Russian to make when first learning English.
I shouldn't get some of these wrong just bc I leave out an article. Especially when the language doesn't use them.
Duolingo can't be sure you understand the answer if you can't provide a grammatically correct answer. They're not going to add in nonsensical word-for-word translations, and they can't make many assumptions with an automated system.
I wrote "where circus?". I think that it should have been accepted because I am trying to learn Russian, not English. I already know it would be grammatically incorrect in English.
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eesan2
The Duo computer has no idea what you know. All the computer sees is that you submitted an answer with incorrect English. It neither knows nor cares why you would submit an answer that you yourself acknowledge was incorrect.
The computer does what grading computers always do when they see an incorrect answer. It marked it wrong. Luckily, with Duo all that happens is you have to resubmit an answer that you already know is the correct one.
где сык? Circus in Russian (sound) Sirsk!! is a difficult one for this keyboard! lol.
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No, it's где цирк, not сык! Though you're right in a way, because after the letter ц (and ж and ш) , и is pronounced as ы .
Woooow, this IS too much??? "where is circus?" is not accepted?
Who create this is aware of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_grammar ("There are no definite or indefinite articles (such as the, a, an in English) in the Russian language. ") And my mother language is Serbian, QUITE SIMILAR to Russian, and also WITHOUT ARTICLES. So my context is already close to Russian: "NO ARTICLES" and now I fail because intermediary language has it, so I have to go out of a context of the language I am suppose to learn??? :D :D
Please, I will be glad to be let known that my English is not correct, but don't impose that I don't understand RUSSIAN because of not so great English! Thaaaaaaaaaanx!
If you want to subscribe to the "Russian course for English speakers", so you should comply with the English Grammar, otherwise you should look for a Russian course for Serbian speakers
hi sinisa.rudan, i was really confused about this and found this link: http://russianmentor.net/gram/mailbag/topics/article1.htm it helped me.
