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"There is no one to take care of her."

Translation:Некому о ней заботиться.

November 5, 2015

25 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mark841597

Could someone please explain to me why it is некому, and not некого, as I expected? I thought negatives tend to take genitive case and некому sounds dative. Thanks in advance!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dmitry_Arch

The given sentence can also be translated as "Нет никого, кто мог бы о ней позаботиться", in which case никого is indeed the genitive case of никто. Некому, however, is the dative case form of the pronoun that has no nominative case. It is a convolution of the phrase "нет такого человека, кому [можно было бы поручить / захотелось бы]". Here are some examples of using other non-prepositional forms of this pronoun: некого спросить (=there's nobody to ask), её некем заменить (=there is no one who could replace her; literally: "her, there is no one with whom to replace"). If a preposition is required, the pronoun turns into a three-word phrase. Examples: не у кого занять = there's no one to borrow from; не от кого ждать помощи = there is no one to rely on for help (literally, "there is no one from whom to expect help"); не к кому пойти = there is no one to go to; не с кем поговорить = there is no one to speak with; не о ком вспомнить = there is no one to remember; etc. The dative form некому can either refer to the subject of the following infinitive, or to its indirect object, and, in some cases, the phrase can be ambiguous. For example, некому жаловаться may be understood as "there is no one who would complain" and as "there is no one to complain to".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mark841597

Thank you very much for the quick and detailed reply! So некому is indeed dative, and I can understand why one would use некому in sentences like Ему некому подарить подарок since the negative predicate pronoun is the indirect object.

But I didn't understand why the negative predicate pronoun is dative in this particular sentence, because it is the subject. Is it safe to assume this type of pronoun takes the dative case by default, when it is the subject?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dmitry_Arch

Yes, if, by 'subject' you mean the doer. It is advisable to avoid using "некому" with verbs that can have an indirect object in the dative, as this usage will result in ambiguity. For example, ״Там некому дарить подарки" can be interpreted as "There is nobody there to give presents" and as "There is nobody there to give presents to". By the way, in all negative pronouns starting with не, including the 'three-word' ones не is always stressed, whereas ни in negative pronouns is never stressed. Another important fact is that некто and нечто mean 'a certain person' and 'a certain thing', respectively, so they are not negative. For obvious reasons, некто only has the nominative case form. Нечто also has only one form which can be nominative or accusative, depending on the context. When we need to use 'one person' or 'one thing' in other cases, we just decline the phrases 'один человек' and 'одна вещь'. Некто is used before a name (a certain X), whereas нечто is normally used before an adjective (e.g. нечто невообразимое = something unthinkable). Это было нечто! = That was something!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mark841597

It is clear now! Благадарю вас!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/yashamax

"For obvious reasons, некто only has the nominative case form."

Well, it may be obvious to some... I don't expect you to be my unpaid Russian teacher, but can you point me in the direction of some online assistance with this whole некому, некого... business?

Thanks


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Shady_arc

It is not exactly obvious but pretty natural.

Their oblique forms would coincide with forms of некого and нечего, which have a completely different meaning and use. It would be fairly inconvenient.

Нечто and некто mean "a certain person", "a certain thing" (in narratives about the past некто is often used with the name of "some" person you imply you knew nothing about).

Некого and нечего, on the other hand, need no Nominative form because they are always used in impersonal sentences (sentences that lack a formal subject).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dmitry_Arch

http://masterrussian.com/aa022401a.shtml The source is pretty good, except I spotted one inacuracy there: the prepositional case form of некого is wrongly illustrated with не с кем, which, although has a preposition, is an example of the instrumental case. (Prepositional is not the only case that allows using a preposition). Examples of the prepositional case include не о ком, не в ком and не на ком.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Scial

Doesn't the "о" remove the ambiguity in this sentence though?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Shady_arc

This sentence has no ambiguity.

The issue is, некого and нечего will take the Dative case if they take over the role of what would be the grammatical subject otherwise:

  • Я её люблю. → Некому её любить.
  • Чайник сломался. → Нечему было сломаться.

If you use a verb that can attach a Dative recipient, you have an ambiguity (usually resolved by context). Некого and нечего would naturally be Dative if they replaced something that was already Dative anyway.

  • Я отправил сообщение. → Некому было отправить сообщение.
  • Мы помогли Саше. → Нам некому было помочь.

In Russian, отправить "send" has 1) subject 2) object 3) recipient. Помочь "help" has a subject and a recipient. If you make некому-sentences with these verbs, it may not be immediately clear who некому refers to.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AndroidKanada

"The issue is, некого and нечего will take the Dative case if they take over the role of what would be the grammatical subject otherwise"

AHA! Thanks @Shady_arc. That's what I came looking for.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Langrusse

This example could (verbatim) be translated as "Нет ни одного (человека) позаботиться о ней", but literary it`s "Некому о ней (по)заботиться". And another sentence, "О ней никто не заботится" in English would be "Nobody takes care of her".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dmitry_Arch

Нет такого человека, который бы (по)заботился о ней. "Чтобы" means "in order to" / "so as to" , it doesn't fit in here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/quevivaespanha18

"некого может заботиться о ней"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Shady_arc

Only некому works.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sp.ark

Double standarts.

In an earlier exemple "There is no one to give him a present to" the variant I proposed "Некому дать ему подарок" wasn't accepted.

Here the same beginning of sentence "There is no one to..." easy translate as "Некому..."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dmitry_Arch

With verbs like “give” that have two objects one of which refers to the recipient and put in the dative case in Russian, the word некому may sound ambiguous. So, with such verbs, “There is no one to” is best translated as «Нет никого, кто бы мог».


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Oemerich

Is "Заботиться о ней некому" wrong, right or unnatural?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dmitry_Arch

It is absolutely natural and should be accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FKWL10

О ней никто не заботится -- принципиально недопустимо? "Некому о ней заботиться" -- звучит не по-русски, больше похоже на неполное предложение, парцелляцию, кусок диалога.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/olimo

Никто не заботится не обязательно значит, что позаботиться некому. Может, и есть кому, да никто не заботится.

Парцелляция... вот уж точно не по-русски звучит))


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FKWL10

Это лингвистический термин (извините, что в этом предложении тоже много слов с неславянским корнем).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/olimo

Да не в этом дело... Мне странно, что человек, знакомый со специальными лингвистическими терминами, предлагает настолько неточный перевод.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dmitry_Arch

That's the way we, Russians, say it - "Некому о ней заботиться" - when we want to express our deep sorrow about a neglected thing or an abandoned child.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Pddngpcklpnts

Некому о ней заботиться

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