I'm puzzled about people not wanting to learn Russian names when learning Russian. I prefer it the way it is.
I'm typing Russian in Russian (not Latin letters) so these names are great for learning the Russian alphabet better!
For those who don't know what it translates to:
Ivan Ivanovich Chernov and Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin - Friends.
You would say "are friends" in English, not "— friends". Dashes work differently in Russian than in English.
And now you know that Ivan's dad's name was also Ivan. This is what the middle name gives away in Russian.
Kys :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :):) :) :)
so ivan ivanovich is actually a comon name over there? and i thought it was just a way we made fun of them.
Is it very common to name a son/daughter after their father? How about naming after their mother, grandfather, or grandmother?
Also, if you use such small number of firstnames, how do you distinguish between two people with the same name? Like, when there are four Ivans in the same class, family, etc. Use nicknames or family names? If so, is it acceptable to call someone you're not very close to (say your boss or your friend's friend) by their nickname?
Sorry for many questions, but I'm very curious because these kind of things (father/son/people having the same name) almost never happen in my country (Japan).
Naming their children's middle names, traditionally Russian parents use the name of the father. I'm pretty sure it's some type of rule. But there are gender differences in their names. "Иван Иванович" means "Ivan, son of Ivan". "Вера Ивановна" means "Vera, daughter of Ivan".
I don't think this actually answers the question. The question is (I'm assuming) why are he and his father both called Ivan? Is this common? Etc.
Well, considering that in the rest of the world kids take the last name from their fathers it shouldn't be that surprising or weird. It's basically the norm.
I guess somebody got offended because of this simple observation. Interesting.
In Russia people should have a middle name, this is the rule. To give a middle name after father is a tradition, but it is not necessary. You can name after mother, grandmother, grandfather, anyone, but this is not common, and, in fact, a very rare situation.
If there are several people with the same name in the class, then you specify who you are calling. You can call a person by a full name (Иван Иванович), or use a nickname or surname. Or you can just point to the right person. Any clarification, that does not offend a person, will be acceptable.
Calling a boss by his nickname possible only if you are on very good terms. However, at work - this is a violation of subordination, so it is not welcome. Even the use of the first name or surname will not be acceptable, only the full name.
You should call someone you are not very close follows the way you were presented to him (or as he himself introduced himself). This is the preferred option, but much depends on the circumstances. For example, if it is a friend's friend, and everyone calls him by his nickname, then you can also call him by the nickname.
Hope this helps. Sorry for bad english.
In Russia, there are no middle names but rather "othestva" (a specific type of patronyms). By definition, an "otchestvo" can only be based on the father's first name (a patronym in general can be based on the given name of male ancestor, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic). As far as I know about foreigners in Russia (including citizens), they are not required to have a patronym and they are allowed to have their extra names as part of their first name or family name (based on the nature of the extra names).
Your other "shoulds" seem to be a bit too broad. However, you are right that any name clarification is generally acceptable. For example, in the department where I worked, both the head and his deputy had "Mikhail" as their "full" first name. To distinguish between them, the deputy was simply called "Misha" (which is a diminutive). In fact, I doubt that anyone (younger than say 40 years old) in the company would be offended by a common diminutive. The tricky part is that only the most common names have such diminutives. So, "Misha" is much more acceptable than say "Kirya" because "Mikhail" is more common than "Kirill" and therefore has to be disambiguated more often.
Отчества can be based on mother's first name. It's not forbidden, but, like I said, it is a very rare situation. And thank you for the example. I don't know english well enough to explain this question better
I've found just two cases since at least 1991:
the 2012 case with a "matro-patronym" as a patronym: https://newizv.ru/news/society/26-11-2012/173596-pervyj-zhitel-rossii-zaregistriroval-otchestvo-po-imeni-materi
the 2018 case with a pure matronym as a patronym: https://rg.ru/2018/04/12/rossiianka-dala-dochke-otchestvo-po-matushke.html (as stated in the news report, registrators thought that the patronym is based not on the mother's first name but on a similar male's name, so the thing was registered not as a matronym)
Because we want you to have some exposure to what Russian names are like. And 'Bob' is not even a Russian name.
There's no such Russian name. "Bo-bo" is a children's word meaning "bolno" = "hurts" ("paletz bo-bo" = "the finger hurts"). (And "Bobovich" sounds like a Belorussian surname.)
Yeah, fine. I'll type out 16 more letters for exposure to culture any-day.
Its not just about culture. There are grammatical rules that apply to Russian names but do not usually apply to foreign names. That is probably why Russians primarily use a small list of names—other names don't fit within the noun declension system and so can lead to confusion.
But don't forget many Russian masculine "short" forms of names actually do end in 'а' or 'я' -- e.g., Дима, Серёжа, Володя, Миша, etc.
Feminine nouns usually end with "a" or "я". Since a name is a noun, most female names also end with "a" or "я". The declensions depend on these endings. Masculine nouns usually end with a consonant, so these cause fewer problems.
"Я Иванович Чернов" is, "I am Ivan Ivanovich Chernov." "Меня зовут Иван Иванович Чернов" is, "My name is [I am called] Ivan Ivanovich Chernov."
Wrapping my head around this; I'm used to the French, "Je m'appelle Ivan / I am called Ivan" and used to not trying to say, "Je suis Ivan / I am Ivan."
I wonder, is there a situation where you would use Я... versus Меня зовут... or are they completely interchangeable?
Thanks in advance!
"Меня зовут..." is less informal and more common. Also (to some extent) using this version puts accent on the name (not the pronoun), as opposed to "Я..." ("Кто Иван? Я Иван." = "Who is Ivan? Ivan is me.").
In Russia I think they start with the surname, then the name, then the father’s name+vich/vna like «Чернов Иван Иванович», is it right?
"My name is Ivan Ivanovich Chernov." translates to "меня зовут иван иванович чернов". It says я which means "I [am]" so the correct translation is "Я Иван Иванович Чернов".
How is Ivanovich pronounced? Where is the stress? The robot voice is confusing...
Pronunciation of иванович seems quite idiosyncratic - it varies from person to person, if the various pronunciations found on forfo.com are any indication:
The audio here almost complete elides the ов in the middle of иванович, making it sound like иван'ич = "Ivan'ich". The various recordings at the link
range from a complete articulation of the entire word, syllable by syllable, while others drop the ов, just like the audio.
Anyone know what is happening here?
Your observations are correct. Abbreviation of patronymic names is pretty common in spoken language, since such names are too long for many situations where they are obligatory. (Imagine that you have to say "Ivan Ivanovich" instead of "John" in everyday phrases like "John, how are you?" and "This is what John thinks".) Moreover, older people sometimes call their peers by abbreviated patronymic names alone (e.g., "Ivanych" and "Ivanna" instead of "Pyotr Ivanovich" or "Ivanovich" or "Maria Ivanovna" or "Ivanovna").
To abbreviate, just drop the "ov"/"ev" unless it's accented ("BorIs(ov)ych", "ArkAd(ev)ich", but "PetrOvich"). For common yet long patronymic names ("AleksAndrovich" and perhaps other cases), keep the main part of the accented syllable (which is not necessarily the first in the word) and of the final syllable. So "Aleksandrovich" is abbreviated to "Sanych" -- and I wouldn't call it informal or familiar for spoken language. (I can say that people call me "Kirill Sanych" more often than "Kirill Aleksandrovich".) But "San Sanych" (instead of "Aleksandr Aleksandrovich") is a bit informal.
When do you use: First name + family name, first name + patronymic & first name + patronymic + family name?
Не думайте только что Иван - это единственное русское имя Меня зовут Настя или Ana по-английски. Hello c:
In this case I guess Ivan Ivanovich is the Russian form for Jr? (Son of father with same name here in the US)
Does anyone else feel like these lines are fragments from some surreal detective novel or something?
It just marks it as wrong. Givs no indication of what was accurately spoken and what was mispronounced. Sometimes cuts off before the sentence is finished. How am I supposed to learn from a straight yess no answer to spoken words?
My wife is Alla Pantelimonivna (SURNAME) Her father was Pantelimon (SURNAME) (Pantelimon was a Russian Saint) The ending of the middle name denotes either son or daughter. Ich is male child, ivna, ovna a female child
Ivanovic is marked as incorrect. Reported because this is far more common a transliteration than Ivanovich
My two cents: Ivanovic is a correct transliteration if it comes from South Slavic languages ( Croatian, Serbian ). In Serbian, for example, it is written Ивановић ( Ivanović) and transliterated Ivanovic, because the last letter Ć is "soft" (like in italian Ciao). In Russian however, it is written Иванович, and transliterated Ivanovich, because the last letter is "hard C" (like in the word "bench").
I think I follow. This is a hard sound difference to hear in my head without having a speaker demonstrate. The neighborhood I work in has the largest population of Bosnians outside of Bosnia in the world, thus my expectation on spelling lol.
Why same names over and over again, what is it we can learn from writing иван иванович чернов, 20 times?
If the names are getting longer this way I will have struggles. Can't wait to meet ivan vanya ivanovich chernov Putin stalin leninov tho
I'm pretty sure 3 names is the maximum in Russian (correct me if I'm wrong). It's not like English, where you can add as many names as you like.
So annoying. Trying to spell that name in English. Does it matter duolingo
Nope. ч = ch
Russian 101. Please go to wikipedia and memorize the cyrillic alphabet, it will help you, A LOT.
It may be confusing for many people because the system used to transliterate Russian into English over time has not been consistent. For example (as a musician, these examples come immediately to my mind), take the composers Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, and Prokofieff. Strictly speaking, Чайковский should start with a "Ch" in English, and more often these days you'll actually see it written Chaikovsky, but often in the past, this particular sound combination entered the English language through French (remember, French was used as the language of the elite classes in Russia in the 18th and 19th centuries), so the letter Ч became, in French, Tch, and was left unchanged as its use passed into English. The name Tcherepnin is another example. And technically, if you want to transliterate Чайковский into English letter for letter, you would end up with something like Chaïkovskiï, with looks so unfamiliar to English speakers that we generally give up at this point and use the historical "Tchaikovsky," however flawed (although "Chaïkovskiï" is actually the transliteration under the U.S. Library of Congress system).
The names Rachmaninoff (Rachmaninov, Rakhmaninov) and Prokofieff (Prokofiev, Prokof'ev) offer similar challenges.
Other names, of both people and places, outside the realm of classical music are not straightforward either, for example: Хрущёв, Горбачёв, Екатерина, Челябинск, Архангельск, even Россия itself, etc.
Then there is the problem of Russians with "foreign" names, i.e., names foreign to Russian; for example, Рубинштейн, Шнитке. Is it better to transliterate such names directly (Rubinshteyn, Shnitke), or to use their more familiar German forms (Rubinstein, Schnittke)?
The point is, transliteration from Russian has never been consistent or straightforward, so understandably there is some measure of confusion and ambiguity when it comes to this. (The Duolingo example, Иван Иванович Чернов, however, presents little trouble.)
Ш makes more of a "sh" sound. Ч makes a "ch" sound so it would be spelled Чернов/ Chernov
I agree, why not just say Bob? My wife (I'm using her name she's doing Spanish) says it's to get you used to hearing Russian.
I think using Russian names and foods (such as borscht) helps to be exposed to aspects of the culture and not solely the vocabulary. I do however think the marking of names needs to be more lenient. I spelled it as Ivanoveech, which phonetically close enough
I know in Russian culture, the child's middle name is after the father but really? John son of John? A bit redundant. Of all names, Dmitri...Nikolai... anything but the poor kid is John Johnson lol smh
Russians tend to be much more conservative in their use of given names, sticking to several dozen or so common names for men and women, and they don't usually make up fanciful names with unusual spellings in order to be "unique," like Americans often do. I think using the patronymic also helps you remember people and their family relationships, whether it's actual people you know or might meet, or figures throughout Russian history. It's part of the beauty of Russian culture... something any serious Duolinguist should be able to appreciate. :-)
"It's part of the beauty of Russian culture... something any serious Duolinguist should be able to appreciate. :-)" Oooh Shots fired!
I guess I was speaking from an American's mouth haha. I mean look at our popular names these days :P
My dislike/issue isn't so much that Americans sometimes use weird spellings to "customize" their names - it's that their personalities don't live up to the spelling. If you're going to insist on some odd spelling as an expression of "yourself" as someone special and different, then "you" ought to act and think very much outside the box. Otherwise, it's just a hollow affectation.