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Native English Speakers:
Please remember that Portuguese is another language, quite different from our own.
When learning it we must remember that, and when speaking Portuguese we don't simply change an English word for a similar Portuguese word and put on a "funny" accent....we are actually talking in another language.
This is an important thing to know, and not everyone gets it at first. I think listening to other people talk the language really helps you realize this.
As a native speaker, it seams perfectly natural to me to say "He likes bread with butter". "He likes bread and butter" (which may be more idiomatic in certain varieties of English) means that he likes bread and he likes butter, and that he would like the two things independently of each other. "He likes bread with butter" semantically means that he likes the two things together.
I'm American but I don't find the sentence "He likes bread WITH butter" strange. I myself have said this many times along with "bread and butter" but I guess it depends on the region your in?
Context is everything! could be "he likes bread with butter, not with jam" or "he likes bread with butter and she likes it with marmite" or "he likes bread with butter but toast with marmalade"...
You're right Kat.
I'm not a native and according to my dictionary "bread & butter" is the correct expression: http://www.wordreference.com/enpt/bread%20and%20butter, but after reading this page, it seems that both expressions "bread & butter" and "bread with butter" can be used maybe depending on in which area you live. (I'd like to know where we can say "bread & butter" and where we can say "bread with butter".)
My interpretation is that you can perfectly say "I like bread with butter" because there's the "I like" and it implies you like the bread with, accompanied the butter, like in this sentence: "“I like bread, and I like butter - but I like bread with butter best.” and maybe because of the "like" this sentence is a bit ambiguous. I like bread and butter can be understood in two ways, as "bread and butter" as a whole or as "bread" + "butter".
The meaning though would nearly always be I like bread with butter although usually expressed as I like bread and butter. Bread and butter is a common phrase in British English. http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/bread+and+butter
I infer from the comments here that "bread with butter" used not to be accepted, although now it is the main translation.
For the record, "bread and butter" (already assembled) is something often served at English afternoon tea. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_(meal)#Afternoon_tea.)
It is mentioned in two memorable scenes in Oscar Wilde's The Importance of Being Ernest. (The full text can be found here: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/844/844-h/844-h.htm. Do a search for "bread and butter" -- you will find eight hits.) Notice that "bread and butter" is used as a singular noun, as in "The bread and butter is for Gwendolen."
You're right, waxondanielsan. Regarding to the phrase "He likes a bread WITH butter, meaning you like the bread WITH BUTTER ON IT. I don't find it strange, it is valid. On the other hand, " He likes a bread and butter" means you like it BOTH. I think there is no region thingy to be considered here. LMAO
"He likes bread with butter" sounds perfectly awkward to me. And as for "He likes bread and butter" meaning "he likes bread and he likes butter and that he would like the two things independently of each other." I disagree. This is a correct analytic logical interpretation, but not the meaning of the sentence as a whole as it is conveyed to me, not at all. To convey this meaning of independency I would say "He likes both bread and butter".
This just goes to show how native speakers have different sensations, which isn't so strange since we have populations on most continents. I'm from Sourthern England. Where are you from Waxondanielsan.
I'm american, and find "He likes bread with butter" to be perfectly natural. It does, however, imply to me that he might not like it without!
Yeah, but in this case it shows something separately "He likes bread and he likes butter." In the case of Duolingo exercise, it is presenting both together like the butter is on the bread, understand wht i mean?
So presumably you would expect bread and butter pudding to be two separate puddings (desserts). :)
Actually, I ran into a similar situation at a restaurant the other day. The menu offered "fried chicken salad" and we had to ask the waiter whether it was talking about chicken that was fried then included in a green salad or chicken salad that was fried. Ah the travails of living in the (US)American South.
You can't say "bread with butter pudding" because the butter is not on the bread of the pudding. Same in French. Il aime le pain et le beurre = I likes bread and (he likes) butter. Il aime le |e pain avec du beurre] = I likes |bread with butter] on.
I think this is an interesting discussion but I am confused as to why native Inglês speakers are saying there is a right or wrong answer.
The truth is, there isn't one. This is why English is one of the hardest languages to learn as a second language. In English, so much depends upon relationships, culture, and/or context. If you are learning English as a second language I would caution you not to take this discussion too seriously! You will only be disappointed once you strike up a conversation with native speakers from different places. In America, we can't even agree on "soda" or "pop" as correct; some places even say "soda-pop?"
My default is, know your audience and pay close attention to where people place words in a sentence because in English word order matters but in Greek for instance, it doesn't because there prefixes and suffixes that tell you the subject, verb, who's being addressed, or who/what something or someone is of/from.
I don't think English is one of the hardest languages to learn. I'm learning English as a second language, and this discussion is really informative. Anyway, we have to take the information and do a "reality check", even when the info are 100% accurate, it depends your area, the education of the speakers, etc, for any language, not only for English.
For word orders: I think in French, it's even worse.
The linguists call this a 'pluricentric language' - a language with multiple 'authorities' / 'prestige dialects' / etc.
Some languages are quite monocentric (such as Russian). Others, such as Spanish, have multiple so-called 'proper versions'.
English, for a variety of reasons, is possibly THE most pluricentric language in the world. The exact circumstances that led to this outcome is complex, but the ultimate result is that 1) there are many, many versions of 'proper English' (or no such thing at all, some may argue), all of which are equally valid (although some, such as received UK and 'standard American', enjoy an especially high level of prestige for economic reasons), and 2) there is no central authority of any kind for the English language (unlike, for instance l'Académie français and l'Office québécois de la langue française for French, or the CPC / Taiwanese government for Mandarin).
I think 'He likes bread with butter' sounds more natural/better than 'He likes bread and butter'.
So long a debate about "bread AND/WITH butter"! I think we should be dicussing more the Portuguese language. That is what we are trying to learn!
Yes, you're right, but it's necessary & interesting to know what it means to translate it well, or you can't.
It is clear that everyone demanding that their version is superior knows what the translation means and they are just being rather childish instead of helpful.
but the great beauty about learning another language is that it teaches you so much about your own language.
I don't agree. If I wanted to say that I enjoyed eating bread that has a layer of butter on it, I'd say "I like bread and butter." I don't think I'd ever say "I like bread with butter" unless I were responding to someone who, for example, said "I don't like bread with butter" (I would mimic but not produce this construction)
I'd say; "Ah luv a piece n butter". Scottish you see....you'd understand what I said...'cause you're not thick.
Native speakers of english (I'm one) don't say "He likes bread WITH butter". They say "AND". Bread with butter is not a correct translation for this sentence, even if the individual words are correctly translated.
You're right. A native speaker of English would not say "bread with butter", though its meaning is correct and so it's up for debate if it should be accepted as a correct translation. I think "bread and butter" is a superior translation since it's the one commonly used.
Reading the discussions, it is obvious that many native English speakers, such as myself, believe WITH to be perfectly acceptable, and perhaps more clear. I am glad to see so many people sharing and opening themselves up to different opinions so that people can better understand and accept each other. Thank you for yours.
Up for debate? Only in so much as you can debate whether the sun goes round the earth or the other way round.
You are one native speaker out of millions. Your intuition may not hold for everyone.
Again it's the nuance of language, "Bread with butter"....while being grammatically correct...it's not a correct translation (Although, in this one case it may be!!)
This becomes really important when we start using idioms...for instance: "He kicked the bucket" A gramatically correct interpretation would be "ele chutou o balde" But a translation would be "ele morreu" (he died)
Any cool Portuguese idioms?
In Glasgow, Scotland, everyone says "a piece and butter" A piece = a sandwich....but only in Glasgow and the surrounding area. Here is a very interesting Scottish folk song from my childhood that uses the word "piece": http://youtu.be/8A7SAPmcwXA
A "Jeely Piece" is a jam sandwich."sanduíche de geléia" .(in America = a Jelly sandwich....damn, it's actually more complicated than that! In Scotland, Jam has seeds and chunks of fruit...Jelly ("Jeely" in the song) has no chunks!!
I love that song...it makes me smile, my mum used to sing it to me....it is a political protest song, but like everything in Scotland, we try to make it funny!
My father never ate "bread grease" of any kind. Whenever we ate as visitors my mother had to warn the hosts making the sandwiches," Harry doesn't have butter." Oddly, because in WWII it was usually margarine anyway. When evacuated to Lancashire, my elders were horrified to be offered the choice, "Bread and jam or bread and butter?" Both were rationed! They might have replied, "We like bread with butter -and jam" I can imagine a context for "He likes just bread with butter" but to me (northern England) "bread with butter" conjures up cutting a warm loaf and putting butter on it and not wanting any more additives.
I knew an elderly man from Bath who made a sandwich with butter, salt and pepper. He said it was a wartime thing. My mother used to castigate me if I only spread butter on one side of her morning roll; "That's what the poor people do!"
For me it would depend on the context as well as what culture idiosyncrasies there are. Even in the U.S. this sentence could be taken differently depending on what the cultural norm is. I took this to mean He like's his bread with butter on it. Would it have been easier to say that word for word. Probably. But the whole thing with language is that it's best to learn it WITH all it's little idiosyncrasies. It makes it easier when speaking and reading for that matter with native speakers.
English is English, but Portuguese is Portuguese. E.g.: In portuguese we'd say " EU SONHEI COM ELA" but in English we should say " I dreamed ABOUT her" and not "WITH HER" can u understand me? In English the preposition WITH means that two or more people or things are together in the same place. That's so confusing because we usually transfer from our language to the other, and that's what we should not do, especially because they both are different. Try to think in English instead of in ur native language, it'll help you understand that clearly ;) One more thing, if someone tell me "BREAD WITH BUTTER" I connect this information to something like "The butter on the side of the Bread on the table, but they are not mixed". In short, you have to use AND, as preposition, in this case.
My native language is English, and I'll happily say bread and butter, or bread with butter. They mean the same thing, and there have been plenty of comments on this discussion, by other native speakers, saying pretty much the same. I think Duolingo should go with the native speakers' consensus and support both.
Ricky, I agree with you and both preposition which they have been presented are correct. The question people are discussing is about portuguese language, my native one. Portuguese native speakers often use the preposition "COM" the same as "WITH", but in english as I mentioned before there are some differences, for example in EN -> I depend ON you<- though in PT -> Eu dependo DE você <- Our preposition "DE" means "OF" in english, but not in this case, you know wht i mean? English is one language and Portuguese is another one.
@FsdJunior But if you say "I like bread with butter", in this sentence it's not supposed to be on the table, how do you understand it?
For the ones who say "bread & butter", if you mean bread and butter separately, would you say: "I like bread and butter too" or " I like both, bread & butter", or "I like bread and I like butter". Is it correct?
When speaking, the words really run together when you mean "bread with butter spread on it" -- bred'n'butr. At least, that's been my experience.
eu gosto de = I like
tu gostas de = you like
ele/ela gosta de = he/she likes
nós gostamos de = we like
vós gostais de = you like
eles/elas gostam de = they like
There is a difference in meaning; for I would say "he likes bread with raisins" if I meant that the raisins were IN the bread rather than sprinkled on top.
Weird, to me if someone said "he likes bread with raisins", I'd assume they were sprinkled on top (since raisin bread is it's own kind of bread).
However, "bread and butter" is the way I would go to talk about eating bread that has butter on top. I think a lot of it has to do with culture - bread and butter (or toast and jam for instance) is a dish or side dish that is common to eat. Bread and frogs, for example, is not (where I'm from), and so if I heard "he likes bread and frogs", I would assume he was eating them separately, not even necessarily eating both, rather than together as an amphibian pate topping delicious bready things.
Coming from the U.S., New England
You can say "raisin bread" or "bread with raisins": Google search for "bread with raisins" recipes (raisins are inside the cake batter): http://goo.gl/Vuj2Z2
Is "Bread and butter" the short for "Bread & butter pudding" or are they two different dishes?
I found that for "bread & butter pudding": http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/recipes/breadpud.htm
No, bread and butter is never used as short for pudding. Though why anybody still eats it I've no idea it's horrible!
Raisin bread and bread with raisins can mean the same thing, but I might need clarification if someone just asked me for bread with raisins.
Could someone answer why "gosta" is accompanied with "de" and not just "ele gosta pão"?
Posso escrever assim que tbm esta certo ?
He likes from bread with butter !
Não "He likes from bread with butter". Está errado. Somente "He likes bread and butter".
'Gosto' is the first-person singular conjugation, so you'd say 'eu gosto', but with 'ele' you need the third-person singular conjugation, which is 'gosta'.
The present-tense conjugations of 'gostar' are:
Because verbs conjugate by 1st, 2nd, 3rd, singular, plural person. They have nothing to do with gender.
Note from a Portuguese native speaker:
The "i" from manteiga is hardly ever pronounced, making it sound like "mantega".
Personally, I've never met anyone who said "manteiga". While this would be the "correct" pronunciation, pretty much everyone (that I know, at least) says "mantega".
This phenomenon happens with many words, so don't be surprised when you find out we don't speak in such a dictionary-ish fashion.
I was making a cake last Sunday and used (pronounced) "manteiga" all the time. =)
Because verbs have nothing to do with gender, just 1st, 2nd, or 3rd person, singular or plural.
eu gosto de = I like
tu gostas de = you like
ele/ela gosta de = he/she likes
nós gostamos de = we like
vós gostais de = you like
eles/elas gostam de = they like