"Невсямузыкаэтоопераибалет."

Translation:Not all music is opera and ballet.

3 years ago

28 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/kebukebu
kebukebu
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Even though I guessed the correct answer, I'm confused about the usage of это here.

3 years ago

[deactivated user]

    It’s basically a «X is Y» sentence, those often have «это» where Enlish has «is».

    3 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/kebukebu
    kebukebu
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    Спасибо!

    3 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/LukaVukZrinski

    But it can probably be left out? And if so, is it considered better form to include it?

    1 year ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/man_nur
    man_nur
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    And it sounds natural here?

    2 years ago

    [deactivated user]

      Well, maybe. I wouldn’t express the thought in this exact way (I’d go for something like «Есть и другая музыка, не только опера и балет»), but the suggested wording doesn’t sound incorrect.

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
      piguy3
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      "Not...and" feels like it stretches the bounds of natural English negation. It seems like the natural phrasing would use "or". I'm guessing I could go dig up a rule about logical conjunctions and disjunctions that would express this qualm in formal symbolic logic.

      So I'm wondering if somebody can help me understand if negation of "ands" and "ors" in Russian obeys a fundamentally different schema (in keeping with the very different approach to "double" negatives, say)

      2 years ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/TheFinkie

      I think you are correct except when the two items are closely related to one another.

      Consider: "Not all the food here is cheese and crackers". This sounds much more natural than "Not all the food here is cheese or crackers". (I hope you agree and see where I'm coming from.)

      I think this is the idea that Duolingo is getting at here: that opera-and-ballet is almost a single idea, rather than being two different examples of what the music isn't.

      9 months ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/AndroidKanada

      I think that's not because cheese and crackers are closely related, but because they are a "thing", a combination often served. You wouldn't say "Not all food is cheese and yogurt", although it isn't drastically wrong. You'd use "or". Consider set logic: the set of opera music and ballet music is that music which is used in both (intersection), but what you want to express is that not all music is in the union, or "or". (I'm half-serious here, though being analytical about this seems amusing.)

      There's also a category error here: Not all music is opera or ballet music. ;)

      8 months ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/MarkusM14
      MarkusM14
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      Oftentimes, languages do not use the regular "operators" of formal logic; consider, for instance. People like to think that double negatives should be positive, but this is only true if the negative operator in a language is the logical-not, it might as well be the operator where you get the following truth-table, where ¤ is a stand-in for the relevant operator:

      ¤true = false ¤false = false

      Such an operator exists in formal logic too, and no one calls that operator "illogical". My point here, basically is: trying to go for any direct analogy between logic or set theory may run foul of the fact that languages are evolved for economy of expression more often than precision of expression.

      I do agree there's some kind of a problem with the translation into English here, though.

      The naive application of logic to language (e.g. assuming the usual "logical negation" is the only possible "logical" negation) is one of my old pet peeves.

      2 months ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/AndroidKanada

      Although I basically agree and extend that to science and engineering ("organic" chicken does not mean it contains carbon atoms), what I was going for was illustration, not proof. In some cases the set theory usage aligns with everyday language - that's where it came from.

      2 months ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/PolyJack
      PolyJack
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      I'd agree with using 'or' opposed to 'and' here, it felt to me more natural using 'or'. It would be useful to know if there's any difference in using 'и' vs 'или' here.

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/taffarelbergamin

      I don't get it... No music is ballet/opera. They use music and aren't music. I'm confused...

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
      piguy3
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      I think you might have failed to notice the "вся": "not all music".

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/taffarelbergamin

      what I mean is that if you say "not all music", that implies that some music "is" ballet or opera, which doesn't make sense, because ballet is ballet. There is an orchestra playing in the background, sure, but it is not music. It has music.

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
      piguy3
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      In English at least, the music for a ballet is also called a ballet.

      See how the Wikipedia article for Swan Lake begins for example:

      Swan Lake (Russian: Лебединое озеро/Lebedinoye ozero), Op. 20, is a ballet composed by Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky in 1875–76.

      I'm not sure how often the entire genre of music for ballet is called simply "ballet," but it doesn't sound weird to me, and there are some examples online, for example.

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/taffarelbergamin

      hm... ok, so in English (I'm not native), the music composed specifically for a ballet is called a "ballet".

      That is interesting...

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/Samuel.bkn

      Yes, technically, but when you speak with someone in English, they won't refer to ballet music as ballet; they'll just call it classical music.

      Perhaps in Russian, they make the distinction between such types of music. . .

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
      piguy3
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      As a person who at certain times has listened to lots of classical music, and therefore had a need or desire to make further distinctions within that broad category, I could totally imagine myself talking about listening to "ballet," but I'm far from an expert. I'm just a guy who's got a lot of classical music.

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/kocurrr
      kocurrr
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      Hi, I am not an expert on Russian, but I already know two Slavic languages, so let's give it a try)) Here the meaning is that there is something more than opera and ballet (both things are present). But in a case where there is none of those two things, I'd rather use 'или'('or'): У меня в городе нет оперы или кино (There is no opera or cinema in my town) У меня нет брата или сестры (I have no brother nor sister)

      2 years ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
      piguy3
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      Looking at this with new eyes, the English idiom "not everything is wine and roses" now comes to mind. Obviously this sentence is tautological when read completely literally [there can be no one thing that is both wine and roses, their being different things and all], but that would be to miss the point. I suppose it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that the Russian version contains the precise same logical ambiguity but clear idiomatic meaning as the English one: "there are kinds of music that are neither opera nor ballet"

      2 years ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/AlanTurgutoglu
      AlanTurgutoglu
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      my Russian colleague says this phrase sounds very strange and unnatural in Russian.

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/kocurrr
      kocurrr
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      But on the other hand people in Russia often say "Мы вашего белорусского и украинского языка не понимаем!" (We don't understand your Belaruassian and Ukrainian"), so it seems that this is not a rule, but only a little suggestion. From my experience, I can say that the intuition will come with time, so don't give up)))

      2 years ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/ErikRempe
      ErikRempe
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      Why is "all music" not in genitive since it is a negation?

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
      piguy3
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      The genitive use you refer to is about non-existence more than simple negation. "Not all" is in fact a statement of existence (of additional kinds of music), not non-existence. Genitive would have been used were the sentence something like, "There is no music that is not opera or ballet."

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/Guenter212784

      I believe the sentence means that there are also other kinds of music, not just opera and ballet, or am I wrong?

      8 months ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
      piguy3
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      Yes, I believe that is what it means.

      8 months ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/MarkusM14
      MarkusM14
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      The way negations and conjunctions interact in English, "Not all music is opera or ballet." is a more natural translation for many speakers of English.

      2 months ago
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