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- "Ovunque lui viva, lo troverò…
73 Comments
197
subjunctive is NOT all about uncertainty. doubt is only ONE of many triggers that force the use of the subjunctive. opinion/judgment, supposition, doubt/denial/disbelief/uncertainty, emotion, desire/wish/hope/expectation, order/permission plus phrases such as a condizione che, a meno che, a patto che, affinche (accented), benche (accented), cosi (accented) che, perche (accented), sebbene, senza che and more. it's used in dependent clauses after superlatives (she was the most beautiful bride I had ever seen) it's used in main clauses to express a wish. it's used in formal invitations (let's look at the causes of the unrest) "e (accented) necessario" is not about uncertainty. nor is 'non importa', 'occorre'. 'bastare', 'bisognare'.or 'e (accented) una vergogna". all of these require the subjunctive. as does dovunque/ovunque. "wherever he may live" = "ovunque possa vivere"
- 504
I don't know how long ago you made this comment but thank you for taking the trouble to write. I like the idea of "triggers forcing the use of the subjunctive." It emphasises the fact that the subjunctive is a mood, not a tense. It will be at the forefront of my mind from now on. 3o.1.2020
- 197
the uncertainty is non existent. the speaker is certain. "I WILL find him" he doesn't say "maybe I will find him" 'dovunque/ovunque' trigger the use of the subjunctive.
Agreed the speaker expresses extreme confidence in it occurring, but it is still an intention, not a statement of fact (at the time it is spoken). Remember this is a tense that doesn't have a direct equivalent in English, so any absolute rules won't always apply.
Madonna! Prima c'era, "È necessario che il marito muoia," ed ora abbiamo, "Ovunque lui viva, lo troverò!"
As far as I know, ovunque is always followed by the subjunctive, I think the same goes for comunque.
- 2338
Because the sentence starts with "lui", so we already know that it is a HE that may live 'wherever', that we are looking for.
"It" is not used for humans, it's for neuter nouns. "He" and "Him" are used when talking about male people.
But "lo" does not appear to refer to "wherever". It would be much less likely to refer to "wherever" as "it" than to refer to "he" as "him".
- 231
But we don't know that the 'lo' refers to the 'he' in the first part of the sentence. Since we have no context it could refer to something mentioned before which would be an' it'. For example the smell of his socks, or something he always has with him wherever he goes. So 'wherever he goes I will find it' is acceptable as a possible translation.
- 197
there is no backstory. everything you need to translate this sentence is present. just as a probability, you are looking for 'him'. if it was "ovunque faccia la sua casa, lo trovero (accented)", that would change the probability to lean a little bit toward your translation. 'him' would still be the favorite. these are just exercises. story problems and essays are for a more complete learning platform like Rosetta, Babel and others.
- 197
it's subjunctive in English too. it's not present tense or indicative. it may LOOK like indicative because the forms are often identical, but it is still subjunctive. an example of the difference used in one of my classes, many years ago, was--'he speaks English' (indicative) and 'the policeman suggests that he speak English" (subjunctive) two separate forms in third person. but in second person the verbs would be identical--'speak'. the difference does not hold true for all verbs.
- 879
I stand corrected. The subjunctive still exist in English. Thanks to you too for your contribution.
But this begs the question: is the subjunctive still relevant or has the indicative replaced it in daily language?
I'm not sure whether we're all talking about the same phrase. Donmilio is suggesting that the translation of the Italian should be "Wherever he live...". This is using the English subjunctive, but I think in this situation (not in all other situations) the English subjunctive is obsolete, Now we would translate the phrase as "Wherever he lives..." which I think is the indicative. I stand to be corrected, though as I'm not a professional grammarian!
- 879
A quick search with Google ( https://books.google.se/books?id=0YGr8tyr9fQC&pg=PP184&lpg=PP184&dq=wherever+subjunctive&source=bl&ots=x6AIqQ3QX_&sig=QeXy_RQ7W8Mu0nT8K3Ox_lmmaEY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn6YKm6ITdAhVphosKHUMHARY4FBDoATAIegQIBBAB#v=onepage&q=wherever%20subjunctive&f=false, https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/148005/whatever-it-be-and-whether-it-be) about wherever + subjunctive gave positive results. However all point out that this form is rather obsolete.
For the sake of grammar it should be accepted as it is not wrong.
On the other hand:
- it is also too similar to 'broken indicative'.
- it's an obsolete form.
- Italian speakers would use it because ovunque requires congiuntivo not because of the English grammar.
- the average Duolingo user doesn't even know about the existence of verbal moods.
I gladly leave this decision to the editors of Duolingo :-)
- 197
what you may be witnessing is not the death of subjunctive but the evolution of the form. Tolkien published a Middle English (1150-1500) vocabulary in 1922. 'go' at that time was variously spelled 'go', 'gon', 'goo', 'ga'. it settled in to what it is now. because spellings don't match doesn't disqualify function. and 'tense' describes how a verb functions in a certain circumstance.
also, to put the best spin on it, it's sort of romantic (or threatening) and using poetic language, which can be antiquated, is justified.
"Lo" is the masculine object pronoun. Given the reference to "lui" the assumption is "lo" refers to "him" and not say "it."
I tried "Wherever he lives I will visit him" since Duolingo used "trovare " in another sentence to mean "visitare". It was marked wrong. This is the type of sentence that I feel Duolingo needs to eliminate from practice sessions. If "trovare" and "visitare" are NOT interchangeable then they need to quit including sentences that give that impression. Sentences like this only serve to frustrate learners.
anetagh. I don't think so. 'trovare' = to find while 'andare a trovare' = meet or (go to) visit. At least that's how I've seen/heard the phrase used.
What I meant was: trovare itself does not mean "to visit", so the translation here is not misleading in my opinion (not being an Italian speaker, I could be wrong). For trovare to mean visitare (fare visita) you have to use whether "andare a trovare" or "venire a trovare". There is also "trovarsi" (meet up with sb). So maybe Duo used this kind of construction in another sentence you mentioned above.
To me "Lo trovero" means just I will find him/I'm going to find him. To say "I will meet him" I'd use "andro a trovarlo".
anetagh: Apologies for misinterpreting your previous comment. I agree with what you just posted. Ciao.
In the second part of the translation I wrote "io lo trovero". This was considered to be incorrect, and I should have written just "lo trovero". Did I break a rule?
I don't think so, but I'll bet Duo interpreted your "Io" (I) for the pronoun "Lo" rejecting it as redundant.
- 30
I find inserting might / may a really useful way of understanding the subjunctive. It is not obvious to a native English speaker that there is doubt / uncertainty after wherever / everywhere / anywhere, but saying the sentence in English with may / might suddenly makes the sentence uncertain and gives one insight into what the subjective means in Italian / Spanish. However might / may is entirely superfluous in the English translation and does not need to be inserted into the translation. Also to some (no- native?) speakers of English may / might introduces a sense of can / could which is not intended.
I translated correctly the sentence Wherever he lives, I will find him and yet DL keeps as marking it incorrect!!!!!!!
Thought "where ever" and "wherever" would be equivalent, but DL didn't accept it.
I don't think I have ever seen so many deleted comments on one of these before...
Where ever he lived, I will find him. Can a pro in english tell me why this does not work
wherever he lives, i am going to find him; can sombody explain me why it is wrong?
