"His father was a cheerful man."

Translation:Его отец был весёлым человеком.

November 13, 2015

This discussion is locked.


Why not "Ego otets byl veselyi chelovek"?

[deactivated user]

    This should be accepted, too.

    In Past tense, in «X is Y» sentences you can usually put Y in either nominative or instrumental case.

    I personally use Instrumental in all such sentences, and don’t use Nominative here. However, Rosenthal’s style guide (here, in Russian, §179.3.1) recommends using Nominative for unchangeable things (e.g. name, nationality), and Instrumental for things that can change (e.g. occupation), so your form is actually in line with Rosental’s recommendations.


    This sentence requires instrumental. Being a cheerful person is not a permanent state. Use instrumental with something that is no longer true. In this case, he was a cheerful person, but he isn't anymore - either because he is now a grumpy old man or because he is dead. So it must be instrumental because it is a changed past state.

    • 1097

    This is such a vital information! I can't get over the fact that this is not explained in the tips of this lesson but still required to solve this task. Understanding and applying the cases is the center of grammar. What do they expect us to learn from this exercise without any explanation?

    edit: My apologies, I obviously had the same opinion a few months ago and posted it already as I just discovered.


    Thank you for explaining! Спасибо большое за объяснение!

    However, I do think name and nationality are changeable. Theoretically, I can change my name to Igor’ Vasil’jevič Kurčatov and move to Russian any day now and, after a while, get a Russian passport. Thus, both my nationality and my name would be changed. On the other hand, what is not changeable?

    [deactivated user]

      I have used a wrong word when I said 'nationality'. :D In Russian, «национальность» is closer to English 'ethnicity, ethnic background', and 'nationality' is «гражданство». I was thinking about национальность and not about 'nationality' when I was talking about unchangeable things.


      would it be like the diference between "ser" and "estar" in romance languages? E.g. "sou feliz/estou feliz"?

      [deactivated user]

        Technically, yes. However, I personally don't follow this rule in my speech.


        Actually, I think you may have been technically correct. In original usage, your nation is the group you were born to (cf. Latin natus), and citizenship «гражданство» can change. Usage is blurring this.


        I thought it was vesolyi instead of veselyi.


        Его is pronounced as evo and сегодня as sevodnya. I think it's when г is between two vowels. That's how I learned it. Maybe others may have some thoughts.


        I learned it as just его and ого (with exceptions if it's in the root e.g. много, дорого expensive, строго strict - those are pretty much the only words you'll come across). That said, not many other vowel-г-vowel combos come to mind.


        It's actually when -ого or -его are part of an adjectival masculine or neuter genitive singular or masculine accusative singular ending (хорошего, синего, интересного, большого), or (н)его as a pronoun (него as the object of a preposition). The expression сегодня is a fusion of an old modifier сей, which meant "this", and день (day) -- "of this day".


        If the sentence were in present tense, we would have used nominative, right? "Его отец - весёлый человек". How come we have to use instrumental because it's in the past tense?

        [deactivated user]

          If the sentence were in present tense, we would have used nominative, right? "Его отец - весёлый человек".


          In fact, nominative is also possible in the past tense («Его отец был весёлый человек» — I personally don’t speak like this, I use Instrumental in the past tense, but Nominative+past is not uncommon in books and maybe in other regions).

          How come we have to use instrumental because it's in the past tense?

          I guess this is an exception that needs to be memorized. There is little logics in this.

          Usually, verbs don’t change the cases depending on the tense. But «быть» is a highly irregular verb (it’s present tense есть — when it’s not omitted, of course, — doesn’t even look remotely similar it’s past tense был!), and, well, it does use Instrumental in past and future tenses, but not in present.

          I guess it’s because Instrumental is often used for transformations (ма́сло ста́ло мя́гким ‘the butter became soft’, кня́зь оберну́лся во́лком ‘the prince turned into a wolf’), and using the past and the future tense of ‘to be’ implies some transformation compared to the Present Tense.


          According to Brown (Penguin Russian Course), Instrumental is used after certain verbs, становиться, заниматься, интересовать, but most importantly быть in past, future, and infinitive. (btw, i think this book is the best companion for Duo and his moderators.)

          • 2728

          An interesting fact is that Polish uses instrumental in sentences like 'X is Y' for all forms of the verb to be = być, even in the present tense.


          I have learned heaps from this discussion string.

          • 1141

          So why in another example in this session were we apparently supposed to use nominative case in one of these past tense situations (Раньше здесь была стена)? Or are nominative and instrumental the same for inanimate feminine nouns? It would be so incredibly helpful if the correct answers came with a "subtitle" indicating gender and case of each noun, tense of each verb. It's not so tough in languages with fewer genders, fewer cases, articles going along with the nouns to provide a memory aid on gender, even when endings are varied or irregular, but the Russian is a real challenge!


          I think while in "Раньше здесь была стена" the location (здесь) is the focus, you would still say "Стена была жёлтой" when you're linking стена to an adjective. But I'm not sure.


          Also, стена is the subject of the sentence Раньше здесь была стена, while in the example sentence, the instrumental is the predicate of быть.

          • 1097

          This! A great example of what really annoys me at DL:
          This grammar is obviously a huge topic, as is evidenced by this discussion. Yet it is slipped in casually in a lecture about adjectives without any explanation. Sheer luck it is that someone explained it on the discussion page.
          All the time we try to understand and apply the use of cases which is very important. Then we discover such a sentence which might question everything and is just counterproductive. There is no need for this. And if there is - make an own lecture or just explain it in the so called tips.


          Yes, it would be helpful also to have a quick summary of the rule the sentence is illustrating, too in the tips and notes or at the beginning of the question. . The comments are extremely helpful.


          Hey new learner, here's a question to upset and frustrate you. Haha!


          To say someone was a cheerful person strongly implies that his cheerfulness was innate. Therefore nominative apparently


          This is what I thought, e.g., он был больным (he was sick and it passed) vs. он был больной (he was chronically ill). I think the nominative should be accepted here. Otherwise I would expect the English to be something like "His father used to be a cheerful person."

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