"He asked if you had a permit."

Translation:Он спросил, есть ли у тебя пропуск.

3 years ago

63 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/TEHHOERS
TEHHOERS
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Can someone help me out with the difference between если and есть ли? I thought the former was a contraction of the latter.

3 years ago

[deactivated user]

    I thought the former was a contraction of the latter.

    You’re right, it was originally a contraction, and was in fact written «естьли» in the past (according to Vasmer). However, in modern Russian they are not interchangeable: «если» is used in subordinate clauses of condition (е́сли у тебя́ есть про́пуск, заходи́ = if you have a permit, come in), while «есть ли» is used like other verbs with «ли», in object clauses (like in this sentence) and sometimes in the main clause to form a general question (Е́сть ли у тебя́ про́пуск? = У тебя́ есть про́пуск?).

    3 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/Araucoforever
    Araucoforever
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    Another great explanation. You should be teaching this course!! There is nobody better than a native speaker for getting explanations. If you decide to learn Spanish I could help you if you help me with Russian. I am poor so I cannot pay you but I would love to have you as my Russian instructor.

    1 year ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/YTcassadyDodson
    YTcassadyDodson
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    I completely entirely agree. I sincerely believe that if szeraja_zhaba made a youtube channel or something to explain advanced language questions, it would become popular very quickly.

    4 months ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/Dchekhov
    Dchekhov
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    если...то... if...then... Use если in Russian when you would use "if" in English. Place the Russian word ли after something you intend to question in the sentence; we'd often do this with intonation in English, Russian does too. It's like when you'd say "whether" in English. In this example, the existence of the permit is being questioned, thus "есть ли". If, say, a police officer was asking 5 people if they have permits, and the cop gets to you and you don't understand if he's pointing at you or the person behind you, your friend could lean over and say, "Он спросил есть у тебя ли пропуск" (imagine the intonation going up on тебя).

    Other example. Your friend would ask if it's raining, but you've been inside all day so you wouldn't know and you'd say, "Я не знаю идёт ли дождь" and your friend would keep talking about the flipping rain like it's the end of the world or something and would be all, "Если идёт дождь, то я не поеду в магазин." You can also use если...тогда...

    2 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/Reionder
    Reionder
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    I liked this explanation, thank you!

    4 weeks ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
    zirkul
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    Not quite. "Eсли" means "if" or "whether". "Ли" is a shortened form of "если" which is always placed after a verb. "Есть" is just a verb here (which literally means "is"), and aside from looking similar to "если", it has nothing to do with this "если"-to-"ли" contraction. E.g. "I wonder whether he likes music" - "Мне интересно, любит ли он музыку". The part "whether he likes" becomes "любит ли он".

    EDIT: Apparently I was wrong about contraction - see the post by szeraja_zhaba.

    3 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/ryandward
    ryandward
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    As for my understanding, ли doesn't have to be placed after a verb, it must only be the second element of the question, for example:

    Передала ли она вам письмо? - was it passed?

    Она ли вам передала письмо? - was it she?

    Письмо ли она вам передала? - was it a letter?

    3 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
    zirkul
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    I stand corrected. (Albeit I think the most common use of "ли" would still be after a verb.)
    In any case, what I really meant to say is that unlike English "if" or "whether", "ли" always comes after a word that is being questioned.

    3 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/peachtree2

    I put "он спросил у тебя есть ли пропуск", which was wrong, but I think I know why and was hoping for a confirmation. Since "he" is asking a question about which there is doubt, we have to indicate the doubted part immediatly after the question. Yes?

    So if Dchekhov made up an example: "Он спросил есть у тебя ли пропуск", that should really be "он спросил у тебя ли есть пропуск". Or no?

    2 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/NikolayNen

    Can someone please confirm that "он спросил у тебя есть ли пропуск" is indeed wrong in Russian? I am insisting because in other Slavic languages (such as Bulgarian) both word orders would be correct.

    6 months ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
    zirkul
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    It is wrong in Russian. Most likely you'll be understood, but your word order sounds really, highly unnatural.

    6 months ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/kpagcha
    kpagcha
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    Why is "он спросил ли у тебя есть пропуск" wrong?

    3 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
    zirkul
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    "Спросил ли он ...?" means "Did he ask ...?" (Aside from the wrong placement of "он", this is really a different question.) "Ли" should follow the verb that is being questioned.

    3 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/FAJA365
    FAJA365
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    Can someone give me an explanation why "он спросил если у вас есть пропуск" is wrong? I suspect I'm being far too literal with translations but I thought если was used for "if" while "ли" is more similar to "whether".

    2 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
    zirkul
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    You will be understood, but it sounds wrong - it's a word-for-word translation from English. In fact, that's exactly how many second-generation Russian immigrants in the US speak, an it always irks me when I hear this construction.

    2 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/FAJA365
    FAJA365
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    Ok, which part of it though? The use of если, the position of есть or both? Also, if the position of есть is the problem, what is it in the sentence that causes it to move from its usual position?

    2 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
    zirkul
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    It's hard to differentiate the two. I would say, the incorrect part is "если", but using it actually forces "если" into the position where you have used it. In a sense, what you propose is the least offensive structure of the sentence once you have used "если" - but it's wrong.

    2 years ago

    https://www.duolingo.com/Ravi546080
    Ravi546080
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    Why "есть" and not "был", when there is written had and not have??

    1 year ago

    [deactivated user]

      Because Russian tenses are relative to the main clause.

      This sentence consists of two clauses:

      • the main clause «он спросил, есть ли у тебя пропуск», he asked a question;
      • the dependent clause «есть ли у тебя пропуск»; 'do you have a permit?'

      The dependent clause is included inside the main clause as an object.

      When you have a dependent clause, it’s tense in Russian is understood to be relative to the main clause. So, present tense in the dependent clause means 'at the same time he asked' (i.e. in the past), not 'now'. 'Past tense' in the main clause means 'before he asked', not 'before now'. Future tense in the main clause means 'after he asked', not 'in the future'. So:

      • Он спросил, будет ли у тебя пропуск? = He asked if you would have a permit.
      • Он спросил, есть ли у тебя пропуск? = He asked if you had a permit.
      • Он спросил, был ли у тебя пропуск? = He asked if you had had a permit.

      Updated 2018-03-03: fixed the mistake reported by richard547513.

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/Ravi546080
      Ravi546080
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      сейчас я понимаю! спасибо большой!

      1 year ago

      https://www.duolingo.com/richard547513
      richard547513
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      Your last two sentences are the same. Did you mean to use был?

      9 months ago

      [deactivated user]

        Indeed, thanks for noticing!

        9 months ago

        https://www.duolingo.com/keyuehan

        Permit = разрешение. Pass = пропуск.

        It's so simple, why do admins like to confuse people? "Permit" has a broader sense in English, a permit could be a pass. The same goes for "разрешение" vs "пропуск"

        10 months ago

        https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
        zirkul
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        Agreed. I've just commented on the same thing above.

        10 months ago

        https://www.duolingo.com/chrisoconn18

        он спросил есть ли у тебя есть пропуск - is this wrong? It was disallowed

        1 year ago

        [deactivated user]

          Because you don’t need the second есть, it sounds very unnatural with it.

          1 year ago

          https://www.duolingo.com/chrisoconn18

          thank you, that's very helpful.

          1 year ago

          https://www.duolingo.com/WiuGa
          WiuGa
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          Well, the translation of the word "permit" as "пропуск" isn't the most popular or obvious, unless you live in the closed sites, where you need to show credentials every now and then. I'd go with "разрешение", but, it's not permitted!

          1 year ago

          https://www.duolingo.com/tsooj
          tsooj
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          Разрешение means permission, not permit. A permit is a more concrete object (a badge, certificate...) granting you permission to do something.

          11 months ago

          https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
          zirkul
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          A parking permit, anyone? How about a building permit? You would most certainly not translate either of those as "пропуск".
          "Пропуск" comes from the verb "пропускать" - "to let someome/something through". It's a document that gets you in. In that sense Russian "пропуск" it's much closer to an "entry badge". Meantime English "permit" is a document that permits someone/something to be somewhere (e.g. a car in a parking structure, no entrance gate/control is implied).

          10 months ago

          https://www.duolingo.com/Chiffewar
          Chiffewar
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          What's the correct intonation here (for reporting someone else's question)?

          2 years ago

          https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
          zirkul
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          Он спросил [short pause], есть ли у тебя пропуск [same intonation as if you were asking this question].

          2 years ago

          https://www.duolingo.com/edyapd
          edyapd
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          Why "you had a permit" - past simple but in

          "He asked if you had a permit." (if you had a permit.) - present simple

          2 years ago

          https://www.duolingo.com/chthontastic
          chthontastic
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          If you're using the smartphone app, switch to the website and you'll see it explained in the lesson itself. Tenses in subordinate clauses aren't necessarily in the same tense as the one in the main clause.

          2 years ago

          https://www.duolingo.com/MarryFeens

          could i say.... что у тебя пропуск ?

          2 years ago

          [deactivated user]

            No.

            2 years ago

            https://www.duolingo.com/Cosmosis14
            Cosmosis14
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            Is this correct: "Он спросил, у вас есть ли пропуск"?

            It was marked wrong :/

            2 years ago

            https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
            zirkul
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            It is wrong. The "verb + ли" combination should be in front of anything else in a question.

            2 years ago

            https://www.duolingo.com/kpagcha
            kpagcha
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            Is the есть necessary? Can't you say Он спросил ли у тебя пропуск?

            2 years ago

            [deactivated user]

              «Он спросил ли у тебя пропуск?» is definitely incorrect. It means "Did he ask for your permit?" with an emphatic word order (the corresponding neutral word order is «Спросил ли он у тебя пропуск?»).

              Ли works this way: you put the word that represents the 'main' piece of the information asked, put it in the beginning of the sentence, then put «ли», and then put all the other words. In «Есть ли у тебя пропуск», «есть» is the main piece of question. You want to know if the listener has a/the permit or no. Basically, the question can be rephrased as «есть или нет».

              You omit «есть» when it's not the main piece of information (and then, you put the word representing the main piece of information asked before «ли»). For example:

              • Он спросил, пропуск ли у тебя? = He asked if you have a permit [or something else]. He asked if it's the permit you have.
              • Он спросил, у тебя ли пропуск? = He asked if you [or someone else] have the permit. He asked if it's you who has the permit.

              In these sentences, you're not asking a question about 'having', 'having' is implied, and you're asking what exactly you have (permit or something else), or who exactly has a permit (you or someone else).

              2 years ago

              https://www.duolingo.com/kpagcha
              kpagcha
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              Great explanation. By the way, when you mentioned есть или нет while explaining ли, it made me wonder one thing: does the conjunction или come from и + ли?

              2 years ago

              [deactivated user]

                Yes, it is.

                2 years ago

                https://www.duolingo.com/daughterofAlbion
                daughterofAlbion
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                Could you say: Он спросил, что у тебя был ли пропуск, if the questioner had been asking about a past event? (e.g. "Did you have a permit when you went to that event?")

                2 years ago

                [deactivated user]

                  You can't combine 'что' with 'ли', this is definitely incorrect.

                  «Он спросил, был ли у тебя пропуск» works, but I believe it's translated 'He asked if you had had a permit' into English (?).

                  2 years ago

                  https://www.duolingo.com/daughterofAlbion
                  daughterofAlbion
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                  Thanks. I notice that you have also changed the sentence order from my (clumsy) suggestion; is there any significance to this?

                  As regards the English version, to be honest, I am not 100% sure but I think either would be possible.
                  Your construction is certainly the correct one for verbs in general. (e.g. "He asked if you had bought a ticket") But the clumsiness of "had had" means that in practice you are unlikely to hear that said. Remember that the backshift in tense need not occur if the reported statement is still true. So certainly "he asked if you had had too much to drink" (because that only applied then, and now you are sober), but you probably have not discarded your permit (and that is not really the important issue in the conversation), so I think the "he asked if you had a permit" is viable (and certainly more euphonious)
                  Reference: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/reported-speech-indirect-speech.

                  2 years ago

                  [deactivated user]

                    «Ли» normally changes the word order. «Ли» refers to some word, or sometimes to a phrase, in the sentence (here, it's «был»). So, the word order is usually like this:

                    • the word which constitutes the main point of the question,
                    • then «ли»,
                    • and then the rest of the sentence.

                    In this sentence, «ли» refers to «был» (the question can be rephrased like this: did you have or didn't you have?), you you begin your sentence with «был ли». If you started the sentence with something else, you'd have different meanings. See my answer to @kpagcha above.

                    My English is not good enough to say anything definitive about the translation, sorry. ^^"

                    2 years ago

                    https://www.duolingo.com/daughterofAlbion
                    daughterofAlbion
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                    Ok, I think I have got it now. I had understood that ли needed to go with the point that was queried, but not realised that it also subverts the sentence order.

                    2 years ago

                    https://www.duolingo.com/YeayYeay

                    Why есть?

                    2 years ago

                    https://www.duolingo.com/Arcblaster

                    I thought word order did not matter with a case system... Why does « есть » need to be placed before « ли »? ):

                    1 year ago

                    https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
                    zirkul
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                    "Ли" is always placed after the word that is being questioned, which is usually (but not always) a verb.

                    1 year ago

                    https://www.duolingo.com/JayBlake2

                    Почему не у вас есть пропоск?

                    1 year ago

                    https://www.duolingo.com/Harry.TP
                    Harry.TP
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                    what's the difference between спросил and попросил?

                    1 year ago

                    https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
                    zirkul
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                    Спросил = asked (e.g. a question); you would typically expect an answer in response.
                    Попросил = asked for; you would typically expect a thing, a favour or whatever else you may have asked for.

                    1 year ago

                    https://www.duolingo.com/Melina_Myriel
                    Melina_Myriel
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                    DO YOU PERMIT, ENJOLRAS?

                    11 months ago

                    https://www.duolingo.com/Alex119913
                    Alex119913
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                    What about он спросил, есть ли у вас разрешение ? That's what google translate says

                    10 months ago

                    https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
                    zirkul
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                    I would personally accept it, but the sticky issue here is how you translate "permit": depending on the context, it can mean "пропуск" (an entry permit) or "разрешение" (e.g. a building permit). Without such context, "разрешение" would be best translated as "permission" though.

                    10 months ago

                    https://www.duolingo.com/Apsa25
                    Apsa25
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                    Should't "Он спросил, был ли у вас пропуск" be also correct, depending on the context?

                    4 months ago

                    [deactivated user]

                      I think that would correspond to ‘He asked if you had had a permit’. (I’m not 100% sure since I’m not a native English speaker. But in Russian, the question would refer to the time before the question was asked.)

                      4 months ago

                      https://www.duolingo.com/Apsa25
                      Apsa25
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                      When I was learning English, I was taught that:

                      "He asked if you had a permit." = if you had a permit at the time of asking a question

                      "He asked if you have a permit." = having a permit is something permanent

                      So thinking this way:

                      "Он спросил, есть ли у тебя пропуск." would mean that having the permit is constant, and

                      "Он спросил, был ли у вас пропуск" would mean that the state of having a permit was in the past.

                      I'm not sure myself if I am consistent with this...

                      4 months ago

                      [deactivated user]

                        No, it’s different in Russian and in English. In Russian, when we transform a direct speech into indirect, we leave the tense unchanged:

                        • Он спросил: «У вас есть пропуск?» → Он спросил, есть ли у вас пропуск (спросил was in the past; «есть» was at the time the time he asked)
                        • Он спросил: «У вас был пропуск?» → Он спросил, был ли у вас пропуск (спросил was in the past; «был» was before the time he asked)
                        • Он спросил: «У вас будет пропуск?» → Он спросил, будет ли у вас пропуск (спросил was in the past; «есть» was/is after the time he asked)

                        In Russian, tenses in the indirect speech are relative to tenses of the main sentence. This is how Russian manages to do with just three tenses.

                        English, on the other hand, doesn’t use relative time. So, when transforming direct speech into indirect, you need to change its tense:

                        • He asked: ‘Do you have a permit?’ [present indefinite] → He asked if you had/have a permit [past or present indefinite]
                        • He asked: ‘Did you have a permit?’ [present indefinite] → He asked if you had had a permit [present perfect]
                        • He asked: ‘Will you have a permit?’ [future indefinite] → He asked if you would have a permit [future in the past]

                        So, the tenses are absolute. ‘You had had a permit’ would mean ‘you had a permit before some other past event’ even if you moved it out of the subordinate clause.

                        (This is my understanding, native English speakers might have more to say here.)

                        4 months ago

                        https://www.duolingo.com/ScottPowry

                        Is this not correct?

                        "Он попросил если бы у тебя пропуск."

                        3 months ago

                        https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
                        zirkul
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                        No, it's not correct.
                        "Cпросить/cпрашивать" (perfective/imperfective) = "to ask" in the sense of "to inquire" or "to ask a question".
                        "Попросить/просить" (perfective/imperfective) = "to ask" in the sense of "to request", "to ask for something (a permission, a thing, a favour)".
                        An expected response to the former is the answer, a response to the latter is the thing or action you have requested.
                        So, it's either "Он спросил, есть ли у тебя пропуск" (the expected response is "yes" or "no", at least formally, from the grammatical point of view) or "Он попросил показать (to show) пропуск" - the response is the produced permit/ID badge.

                        3 months ago
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