"Мы, наконец, взяли эту книгу."

Translation:We finally took this book.

3 years ago

52 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Reindeersp

In the end we took this book seems fine to me (although marked wrong)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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When наконец means "in the end", it is not separated by commas from the rest of the sentence. Commas in the given example indicate that it means "finally".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tenuss
tenuss
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В чем разнице между "Наконец" и "наконец-то"?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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Наконец = finally, both when it means "after some difficulty or delay" and when it means "as the last item of several" (separating commas are only required in the latter case). Наконец-то = at last. This adverb is used to modify a verb referring to a long awaited event. No comma is used after it.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/shani.gorm
shani.gorm
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With the English translation given "we finally took this book" the only reading of the English is "after some difficulty or delay" because that position of 'finally' means a delay after waiting a long time. If you want "the last item of several" it would be "We took this final book". With the meaning of 'final decision' which is what I assume from the Russian, it should be: "In the end, we took this book."

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/n9yty

I thought the same. Althought I think "in the end" is usually (or alternately) given as "в конце концов". Still, in English, I think they are virtually indistinguishable.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/an_alias
an_alias
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Still, in English, I think they are virtually indistinguishable.

There seems to be a fine balance that the course creators/curators are toeing between what is good English and what is good Russian.

The fact of the matter is: Here? We're trying to learn Russian, not trying to explore the variations of English.

I would hope that (and they seem to be, mostly) siding on the side of good Russian. The reverse tree is the place for these kinds of subtleties in English, I would think.

Maybe?

What do I know.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/daughterofAlbion
daughterofAlbion
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It is important to remember that words rarely map between languages with a one-to-one correspondence. Trying to translate that way produces stilted and unnatural language. The only way to understand a word properly is to explore the range of meaning that it can have, and how this compares with the range for comparable words in the target language. And that applies whichever direction you are translating.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/alkajugl
alkajuglPlus
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Whether or not we agree on "this book" (I can conceive of contexts where it would be appropriate), I cannot understand why I would be marked wrong for saying "the" book -- especially since "the" is indicated as an acceptable translation when you hover over эту.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/an_alias
an_alias
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AN acceptable option. Pretty much the top choices (here "this" is above "the") are the ones appropriate for the current sentence (if they're not, report them - this still is in Beta, after all). If you select the second or third choice then you're veering a bit off and may have to adjust or be flat out wrong.

If you select the first choice for "you" and it's "вы" but you select the second choice for the verb which is conjugated as if your pronoun is "ты" you're going to get it wrong. It's a totally acceptable option! And yet still absolutely, unequivocally wrong - given the pronoun choice.

The top choices (mostly, it's not perfect, I've reported some) seem to be the ones most appropriate for the current sentence but the alternate (lower) choices want to let you know that the word doesn't just have one meaning.

I appreciate that.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/malchikrene
malchikrene
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I got confused with the context of this sentence, can somebody explain me? What do you mean with "take"?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
zirkul
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We took/borrowed it from the library? (That would be the most reasonable context I can think of.)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/WolkZayets
WolkZayets
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But if you "take" a book from the library, it implies that you steal it, rather than borrow it.

We finally took this book (we had been planning to steal it for a long time).

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Traci409317

I disagree that taking something necessarily indicates that you're stealing it. In this example, it just came across more as in this, this is the book they chose.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/WolkZayets
WolkZayets
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Of, course, "take" does not necessarily mean "steal", but in many instances it does. For example, parents will tell their children "Don't take things that don't belong to you", with "take" being a softer word for "steal". And in the sentence that we are discussing here, it does imply theft. I cannot think of any instance where a native English speaker would say "We finally took this book" in a normal situation. Who knows, maybe someone has been bugging us to take a book from him/her, and we finally relent. But that's a bit of a stretch, I would think. At any rate, if you say, "We finally took this book from the library (or from the bookstore)", you are saying that you stole it. And the "finally" in this case implies that you have been waiting a long time to steal it..

Here is a discussion on that topic in another forum.

https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/to-borrow-take-a-book-from-the-library.2725215/

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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Once again, as a native Russian speaker, I assure the participants of this discussion that взяли in the given Russian sentence has no (and cannot possibly have) implication of theft. The verb брать/взять only means "to steal" in the phrases "взять/брать чужое" and "взять/брать что плохо лежит". If it is pilfering or theft, we have a wide range of slang verbs to choose from: стырить, стибрить, слямзить, умыкнуть, скоммуниздить (the last one is a bit vulgar as it used as a euphemism rhyming with another word whose root refers to the female sexual organ) - взяли sounds too bland to be used for "stole". On the other hand, взяли encompasses the meanings "borrowed" and "picked up", so, with more context, I guess only those words would be appropriate in the correct translation.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/George699064

As a native English speaker, I disagree that "We finally took this book from the library" implies theft. However, I will say that we would not usually say it like that, not because it does leave open the possibility that the book was stolen, but because it is just not commonly spoken that way. We would say "We finally took out this book from the library" or "We finally checked out this book from the library", both of which imply proper procedure was followed. Now, if you say "We finally took this book from the bookstore", people will think you stole it.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/George699064

Thank you, Dmitry_Arch. I understood clearly from earlier discussion that the original Russian sentence did NOT mean theft in any possible way. I was just expanding on the possible English variations and their interpretations.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/chrisoconn18

'we, at last, took this book' - this was marked wrong - is it?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
zirkul
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This is correct; you should report it.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/chrisoconn18

thanks

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/les_ja
les_ja
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I think "got" is a more natural translation of the meaning of взяли here, no?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/n9yty

I guess context would tell more, but I think of it as.... "After thinking about it" or something, "We finally took this book". So it was a choice to take it after some previous thought. At least that is how I read it. A different context could make "got" more logical I suppose, but to me if it is read the way I read it then it wouldn't be.

Curious in what context you were reading the sentence, if you care to share. That is why it is so hard to communicate, even in the same language, as we see the same thing differently. Wonderful and frustrating. :)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/N30G3N
N30G3N
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I think I have noticed that it seems there is a very slight difference in the pronunciation of я embedded in words than on its own.

When embedded as part of a word, especially between two consonants, its pronunciation seems more like "ye" as opposed to "ya".

Is this correct for native speakers?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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The pronunciation of я depends on two factors: (1) whether it is preceded by a consonant or not, and (2) whether it is stressed or not. I will illustrate the differences by transliterating a few words: ясный /yussniy/ (clear), ноябрь /nuh-yubr'/ (November), лягу /l'uh-goo/ (I'll lie down) - the stress in both words falls on the syllable with я; январь /yinvar'/ (January), лягушка /l'ig-oosh-ka/ (frog) - in these two words, я is not stressed. So you can see that, without a consonant letter in front of it, я stands for a combination of the consonant represented by 'y' in 'yes' and a vowel - either /а/ (it is similar to 'uh' and 'u' in 'bus' and 'a' in 'car'), or the vowel represented by 'i' in 'in', depending on the place of the stress. If there is a consonant before я, such consonant is palatalized or as we say it in Russian becomes "soft" - the concept unknown to most English speakers - and я only stands for a vowel (one of the pair mentioned above, the choice depending on the position of stress). I used the apostrophe to mark palatalization of the preceding consonant).

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/les_ja
les_ja
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This is a great observation! In standard Russian, in words like взяли and пять, where я is in the stressed syllable and the consonant directly following it is "soft" (or palatalized, meaning the tongue is mashed up against the hard palate - in these words л is followed by the soft vowel и and т is followed by the "soft sign" ь, so they are both soft), the a sound becomes less like the a in father and more like the a in cat (which is indeed closer to "e").

This is separate from the stressed/unstressed rule Dmitry_Arch mentions, which is also true and really much more important for grasping Russian pronunciation. :)

Source: not a native speaker but I studied phonetics and phonology in college.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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There is no such thing as a "soft" vowel in Russian. "я" in "взяли" and "а" in "в зале" indicate the same vowel. The letter "з", however, has two different values in these two examples. In "взяли", it stands for a soft "з' " which sounds as if you pronounced z and y at the SAME time (not y after z). "Я" serves as a marker of that "softness". In "в зале" "з" sounds just like z in English. The vowel in both cases is close to "a" in father and "u" in "dull" (a Russian ear doesn't feel any difference between these two sounds, nor does it feel any -difference between "u" in "full" and "oo" and "fool", unless, of course, the listener has been trained in English phonetics, and even that doesn't help lots of times). The "a" in "cat", if pronounced by an American, is almost identical with the Russian "э" and only in the north of England it sounds close the Russian "a". Russian elelementary school students (pupils) are taught that there are two sets of 5 "vowel" letters in the cyrillic alphabet; the letters form these two sets can be paired up as follows: а-я, э-е, о-ё, у-ю, ы-и. The second letter in each pair "softens" the preceding consonant. There are some exceptions: ш and ж are never followed by ы (и is used instead), but they remain "hard" before "и". "ю" only occurs after ш and ж in words of French origin жюри, брошюра and парашют, but in these words it has the same value as "y", so ш and ж are not palatalized, "ч" and "щ" are always soft; therefore, they are never followed by "я" or "ю" (there's simply no need to use these letters after ч or щ, a and y, respectively, being used instead). But of the pair "ы/и" only "и" is used after those consonants. In some loan words such as антенна, пантера, интеграл, интернациональный, интенсивный, т is "hard" despite the fact that its is followed by "e". Apart from letters я, е, ё, ю and и, a consonant can be "softened" by the following "soft sign" "ь". Apart from ы/и, the letters in each pair denote the same vowel when the are stressed. In an unstressed position, "a" has the same value as "o" (both are pronounced as "uh" in the syllable preceding the stressed one and in the opening position, and as shwa in all other cases), "ю" still has the same value as "y", and "э", "e", "и" and "я" all have the same vowel sound - it is similar to "i" in "in" or "e" in "economy".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/les_ja
les_ja
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Yes, sorry, I was using "soft vowel" to mean "vowel that marks the softening of the previous consonant," which is not correct.

This is a really minor point so I don't want to belabor it, but here is the Wikipedia cite for what I am talking about: "Between soft consonants, /a/ becomes [æ], as in пять [pʲætʲ] ('five')." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_phonology#Vowels (The Russian version of the entry says almost the same, although it claims that this happens in more cases, after [rather than between] soft consonants under stress.)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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I've checked your link. Although it seems to be a good source of information, as a native Russian speaker, I disagree with the authors of the article on the 'æ' issue. This sound simply doesn't exist in Russian. When Russians pronounce "ряд" and "рад", we hear the same vowel in the two words and it is clearly different from the 'æ' vowel which we here in the English word "rat". Compared to 'æ', the Russian vowel denoted by "а"/"я" has a very weak articulation - you can say both "ряд" and "рад" with your mouth barely open. By the way if a Russian starts speaking French, Spanish or Italian with the proper pronunciation, after a few minutes of talking the person's lips start to hurt, because our lip muscles are not trained to pronounce full vowels in every syllable.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ramin1981
ramin1981
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in the end = в конце finally = наконец

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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Although "in the end" has the meaning "в конце" as in "I'll tell you about it in the end", it is more often translated as "в конце концов" as in "but in the end it doesn't really matter" - "но в конце концов это не имеет значения"(in British English this meaning is also rendered by the phrase "at the end of the day")

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JohnZRogers

What is wrong with "have taken" instead of "took"? Is this a case of perfective rather than imperfective?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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Взяли is perfective (it's imperfective counterpart is брали). The presence of наконец (finally) indicates that the action was all in the past (the last one in a succession) and has nothing to do with the present. Hence 'took', not 'have taken'

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Squonkalini
Squonkalini
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Which makes one wonder why "have taken" is included in the hover.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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After giving it a second thought, I realized that my previous conclusion was wrong. 'Have taken' can be used with 'finally' - for example, when you are on a beach talking over the phone with a friend and he or she asks, "What have you taken along?" You say, "Firstly, we've taken a suntan lotion; secondly, the picnic basket, and, finally, we've taken this book". In Russian, we would still use the word "взяли", given that it refers to a one-time action.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Squonkalini
Squonkalini
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I forgot to report that my answer should have been accepted. Doesn't much matter though - I get the feeling they're not fixing things the way they used to.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/OliverMundy

I have the same impression. Is this perhaps linked to the fact that there is no longer a box where those submitting an error report can give their reasons for doing so? I cannot really blame the course managers if, faced with a bald statement 'My answer should be accepted' and having no means of finding out the details behind it, they give up in despair and push the report aside. I do, however, blame the people, evidently much higher up in Duolingo, who have deleted the box.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/booshnok1

this sounds like stealing a book.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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The Russian sentence does not sound lik that at all. Consider this situation. "Here's the list of the books we borrowed from the library: (1)..., (2)..., (3)... . Finally, we borrowed this book." The last sentence translates into Russian as "Мы, наконец, взяли эту книгу". When it's not money that you are talking about, Russian does not make any difference between borrowing and taking. Nor does it distinguish between lending and giving.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/servolock

DL's Hints include "the" as well as "this." I know it depends on context. I answered "We finally took the book" because I could easily imagine a situation where this made sense, about a book that was already well identified in context. DL marked "the" wrong. But, anyway, "We finally took this book" somehow sounds a little unusual, even though grammatically correct, because "this" usually occurs with present tense but this sentence is past. So, maybe DL should revise its answer(s). Am I missing anything??

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MaxChase
MaxChase
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Is the text-to-speech pausing enough for the commas? It sounds to me like it's not.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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In Russian, commas are used much more often than in English. There does not have to be a pause for a comma; however, commas separating introductory words mark changes of intonation similar to those that occur in English. In the case of наконец, we put commas when the word means "finally" in the process of enumerating (firstly, secondly etc.) and we don't put commas when it means "at last".

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ale7881
ale7881
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Почему не проходит:" We finally have taken this book."? Why shouldn't we use Perfect in this case?

11 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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Прим описании порядка действий перфект не используется. Present Perfect используется для того, чтобы сообщить о самом факте совершения того иного действия или о том, что действие не совершалось, или о том, сколько раз до момента речи оно совершалось, или о том, в который раз оно совершается. Перфект также используется с глаголами состояния и типа know или belong для сообщения о том, что состояние длится уже столько-то времени.

11 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zirkul
zirkul
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По-моему, это тут не при чём. Ни о каком порядке действий тут речи не идёт. Finally=наконец означает, что мы наконец удосужились, а не то, что это было последним в списке дел. Можете погуглить на "We have finally met"="Мы наконец встретились" и т.д.
Единственной проблемой в предложении ale7881 является неестественный порядок слов: finally гораздо естественнее смотрится между "have" и глаголом:
We have finally taken this book.
Я не знаю, является ли это жестким правилом или просто устоявшимся порядком слов, но предложение ale7881 меня сразу "зацепило" за ухо.

11 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry_Arch
Dmitry_Arch
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Я как-то упустил из виду вариант с логическим ударением на слово "взяли". Тогда порядок действий и правда нИ при чем и требуется перфект, но слово finally не может стоять между подлежащим и have.

11 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TheRunawayFound

This sounds like sone long-planned petty crime.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ChromateX
ChromateX
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What's the infinitive form of взял(а/о/и)?

2 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo
mizinamo
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As you might have expected, взять.

(i.e. the same as the past participle but with л replaced by ть.)

2 months ago
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