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"ресторан возле моря"

Translation:a restaurant near the sea

December 8, 2015

48 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jack.Elliot

the restaurant by the sea


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EvelynOlson0

Why not 'the restaurant near a sea'?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BlakeFowle6

They don't accept either


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BlakeFowle6

*both. They don't accept the restaurant near a sea


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GregoryLCh

It would not often be said. Clearly the usual context for this sort of expression would involve either a restaurant or the restaurant by a specific sea.

One can make up stories where the other possibilities occur but we are looking for typical sentences. (Unless they are about multi-lingual bears, or such matters ...)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/B5429671

"Which restaurant was it?" "It was the restaurant near a sea. I can't remember where it was." It could work…


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnCatDubh

In isolation and in rapid speech the stress is different for some reason.


[deactivated user]

    I can't hear what it's pronouncing in isolation (I guess you only hear this in an excercise), but I think it might mispronounce моря. Мо́ря is the genitive singular, 'of sea', while моря́ is the nominative/accusative plural, 'seas'. When pronouncing words in isolation, TTS might not have enough context to place the stress correctly.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnCatDubh

    Why on earth is there no explanation of stress shift anywhere so far? This is one of the hardest aspects to get used to in Russian and yet nothing is written here about it, let alone declension paradigms appearing in the dictionary like with verbs in the first five courses.


    [deactivated user]

      According to Zaliznyak, Russian nouns have 12 different stress patters, of which 6 are commonly used, and another 6 are only encountered in ~40 words. The common 6 patterns are assigned letters from a to f.

      Each stress pattern is determined by the place of stress in

      • singular forms,
      • nominative plural forms (for inanimate nouns, also in accusative plural),
      • genitive, dative, instrumental and prepositional plural forms (for animate nouns, also in accusative plural).

      For each of these, the stress can be placed at the stem or at the ending, and the models are described like this:

      • a: fixed stress on the stem,
      • b: fixed stress on the ending,
      • c: stress on stem in singular, on ending in plural,
      • d: stress on ending in singular, on stem in plural,
      • e: stress on stem in singular and in nominative plural, stress on ending in plural in oblique cases,
      • f: stress on stem in nominative plural, on ending elsewhere.

      Here's the same thing as the table from «Ударение в современном русском склонении»:

      table from

      And here are the some examples:

      examples

      As you can see by «стол», when the word is expected to have stress on the ending, but the word has no ending, the ending shifts to the last syllable of the stem («губˊ» → «гу́б», «столˊ» → «стóл»). The same is true for gen. pl. forms that can take zero ending too («зеркалˊ» → «зерка́л»).

      Also, when the stress is on the stem, it can be on different syllables of the stem. Obviously, you need to know not only the stress pattern, but also the syllable of the stem.

      You can see the stress patten in the Wiktionary. In English Wiktionary, it's marked in the 'declension' box header like this: «Declension of мо́ре (inan neut-form soft-stem accent-c)». 'Accent-c' is what we need. In Russian Wiktionary, it's marked like this: «2-е склонение (тип склонения 2c по классификации А. А. Зализняка)». 2c is what we need, c is the stress pattern.

      For verbal accents, you can get some information here: http://www.alphadictionary.com/rusgrammar/accent.html

      Hope that helps.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnCatDubh

      Hey, the images are gone now...


      [deactivated user]

        Sorry, I don’t have the PDF with me right now... I’ll try to find where I got those tables from and re-add them this week ^^'


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnCatDubh

        Are there any indications I can use to determine which stress pattern a noun or a verb belong to?


        [deactivated user]

          Well... The rest of the Zaliznyak's work is dedicated to this, but complete description takes 11 pages of text. :D

          Basically, he divides all nominal words into several groups:

          • group 1: declinable masculine nouns with zero ending, ending -ь or -й
          • group 2: neuter or masculine nouns ending in -о, -е, -ё; or neuter nouns in -я
          • group 3: feminine and masculine nouns in -а or -я
          • group 4: feminine nouns in -ь
          • group 5: pluralia tantum nouns
          • words of adjectival declension (слова адъективного склонения): adjectives, nouns declined like adjectives (столо́вая 'canteen', рабо́чий 'worker') and ordinal numerals
          • words of pronominal declension (слова местоимения склонения): pronouns,
          • numerals (except ordinal)

          And here's a table of possible stress patterns in each group (you might want to open the table in separate window if it's too narrow in Duolingo):

          stress by group

          Boldface means that more than 100 words in this group belong to this stress pattern. Italics show that 100 but 10 words belong to this pattern. Brackets mean that only isolated words from this group belong to this stress pattern.


          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnCatDubh

          Aaaand Lingot.

          Wait, so what does the grave accent instead of acute mean?


          [deactivated user]

            Probably a typo.

            Sometimes grave accent is used for secondary stress, and in pre-revolutionary publications grave accent was used on last syllable to imitate Ancient Greek diacritics. However, I see no reason why it's used in this very case.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnCatDubh

            What about verbs? Is there any indication there?


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/daughterofAlbion

            That was the best explanation of stress that I have found - please accept this Lngot


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jQuasebarth

            Yeah, I know this guy who for whatever reason started a restaurant near the entrance of Moria...


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BenYoung84

            Near the mines?


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kaydc1

            моря vs море is it because of the preposition?


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NoahOone

            Yes, genitive case.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zest16

            Then how would we translate "the restaurant is near the sea"?


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/an_alias

            I'm not certain, but I suspect the clues would be in the punctuation. Here there is none so it's clearly not a sentence.

            If there were at least a full stop/period with a possible em-dash between ресторан and возле? I would read it as a sentence.

            I'm terrible at Russian punctuation and I'm guessing.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GregoryLCh

            Dash: See the notes to the skill Alphabet 1


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lankavatara

            The stress is wrong very often in this course, a lot of words just being pronounced wrong. Возле мОря, not возле морЯ...


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Akuhime-sama

            Why can't I use "ocean" here for "море"and its forms?


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Norrius

            That'd be океан, which is different from море "sea".


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Akuhime-sama

            How are they different?

            Also- have any idea how they differ in general? Because now that I think about it- (I'm a native English speaker btw)- I don't even know what the difference is in English. I hear those two words used interchangeably.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Norrius

            Are you serious? I find it hard to believe that someone might not know the difference between a sea and an ocean, but then I'm not a native English speaker.

            Okay. The continuous body of salted water that covers three fourths of the Earth's surface is known as the World Ocean. It is conventionally divided into oceans (Arctic, Pacific, Atlantic, Indian and (sometimes) Southern), with the divisions following continents and oceanic rifts. Seas are also bodies of salted water, but they are partially or (sometimes) fully enclosed by land. A sea is usually a part of an ocean. They are also smaller, and there are only 5 oceans anyway, so anything that's not on the list is not an ocean.

            Though now that I look at it, the distinction might seem blurry, and if this particular sea belongs to an ocean, the restaurant is technically by an ocean too. It still sounds odd to equate a море and an океан.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TheFinkie

            I haven't read this whole exchange, so I'm not sure what conclusion was reached, but I thought I needed to add something here. You are referring to specific oceans, but this sentence just uses a general-sounding "the sea", which I consider to be absolutely synonymous with "the ocean".

            If you were playing on a beach and your son said "I'm going to play in the ocean", you wouldn't consult a map to check and say "ah no, that's actually the sea".

            I am reporting this anyway; I think that they are close enough to both be accepted in this particular case.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tmg2943

            You are correct - there is a technical difference between a sea and an ocean. But, at least here in America, they are completely synonymous when used as in "near the sea" or "by the ocean" and in several other contexts.

            If, for example, you are standing on a beach looking out at the Pacific Ocean and commenting on its beauty, you could say either "the ocean is beautiful" or "the sea is beautiful" and be entirely correct both ways. It might be worth noting that "the ocean" refers more to the specific ocean you're talking about / sounds slightly more technical, whereas "the sea" refers more generally to water. It's also worth noting that nobody would refer to a sea as an ocean, but referring to an ocean as "the sea" (not "a sea," but "the sea," as if it's a concept) is perfectly fine and even a bit poetic.

            We actually have a phrase here that directly contradicts the difference between sea and ocean - "at sea," which is used to describe that something (usually a ship) is on the water far away from land (usually on an ocean).

            I guess my point here is that while there is a difference that you will see in a professional or technical context, in most colloquial speech, the sea is completely synonymous with ocean. For that reason, I think they should either change the translation to "a restaurant near a sea" or accept "the restaurant near the ocean." As a native speaker, my first thought after reading this sentence was of a restaurant in California overlooking the Pacific Ocean, which could 100% be described by "the restaurant near the sea."


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_Maria_B._

            Being an American natively, we would normally say "by the sea". Is that a different translation? Thanks for your reply!


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/psychicist

            When you listen to the pronunciation of the single word моря (marya) and the whole sentence (morya), you can hear a difference. I presume "morya" is correct.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YuYauHing

            Is рестарант рядом моря a replacement in this case?


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IvanChekhov

            You misspell the world restaurant, it should be ресторан. If you want to use word рядом (which means 'near') it becomes a bit complex. You have to use the preposition before the word 'sea' and sea should be in so-called instrumental case: ресторан рядом с морем. The simplest version I would use, which is totally correct, is: ресторан у моря.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Egor51

            возле мОря!


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/falkenburger

            В этом заданием неправильное ударение. Правильный вариант : мОря


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jim989379

            I can't work out why sea is in its genetive form. My textbook doesn't seem to state that somethi ng should take gen if its described as being near something either. Did I miss something? If it was у моря that would make more sense.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BenYoung84

            возле is another word like у that causes genitive in the next word. You can think of it as meaning "in the vicinity of" instead of "near" (words with "of" in front of them in English generally translate to the genitive in Russian).


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sarcophagus2

            "a restaurant near a sea" should be just as good, but it is rejected


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Artem440013

            Sounds like "ресторан возле морЯ" as it sounds in plural case.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MehrdadRu

            "there is a restaurant near the sea" What is wrong with my answer?


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jim313313

            Isn't it hilarious that Море sounds just like "mar dhea" - the Irish expression of scepticism :-)

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