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https://www.duolingo.com/spireiteshane

Disheartened with immersion

Last week I was off work for a few days feeling ill, so I passed the time doing quite a bit of translation in immersion. At the end of the week, I found that I had 19 upvotes, and 4 downvotes, resulting in an overall vote of -1. Whilst I understand that people may not agree with my translations, I find it frustrating that it's not even possible to see where the downvotes occurred, or have the opportunity to perhaps discuss what's wrong. This is my only small gripe at the moment with Duolingo - apart from this, I think the whole DL experience is fantastic, and its probably one of the best free websites in the world!

4 years ago

33 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Luis
LuisPlus
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Thanks very much for this feedback! We'll work on making this better. I should mention that we're about to start letting people see where the votes come from.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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Excellent news, but I think what is more important than that is making it mandatory(or at least optional) to put a reason, or perhaps if the downvoter could highlight a particular part that is wrong. Otherwise we could just be dumbfounded by the sudden downvote in a sentence in which we see nothing wrong, and this makes it particularly hard to learn.

The only other way would be people posting that sentence in the immersion discussion area, and hope that someone can identify the error that was downvoted.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LiamRowe
LiamRowe
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Luis, thank you very much for everything you do, and I seem to already have this option to see where my downvotes are from too, wow that was quick. Anyway, all 30 ... yes, 30 of my downvotes (-150 in tier 5) are due to someone spamming me with them. Every downvoted word was 100% accurate, even numbers to numbers, like " 3456" to "3456". I do not think the downvote feature should be remove, but could you as an Admin look into who did this to me and deactivate them? Not for solely my sake, but for the 1000's of others who will/have experienced this.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/rspreng

For me, the return on investment (time and emotional energy) of 'immersion' on Duo is just not worth it. There are plenty of options to translate written texts.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Usagiboy7
Usagiboy7
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The value of eventually using Immersion again (once I've gained a stronger grasp of the tree skills) is to give back. In that way I approve of the idea of up and down voting. I want to be able to translate commercial articles to help fund this learning experience for others.

I empathize with the frustration though. I took a break from Immersion for a couple of reasons. I plan to become a regular immersion user again once my skills have significantly improved along with my confidence because it is nerve wracking not knowing if my translation was as good as I thought it was or if it was crap re: down votes.

Right now Immersion frustrates me because

a) I could get down voted by people who don't tell me why they down voted

b) I'm not able to know or review which of my sentences were down voted

c) not everyone who uses the down vote knows how to use it (For curious folks, here are instructions Immersion Community Guidelines http://www.duolingo.com/comment/984423)

d) I'm almost certain I ended up on the receiving end of a Troll down voter.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SaxyLady
SaxyLadyPlus
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The tier system is definitely not an indicator in terms of who is ready to tackle something. I've seen one or two level 8s submit what looked to be something that google translate spit out. One of them was so bad I actually downvoted it (I really don't agree with downvoting especially when we can't even see what was downvoted and why) before fixing it.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DrRansom
DrRansom
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I wish there were clear instructions at the outset about how to use Immersion! Just came across this discussion by chance and followed the link to the Community Guidelines--after having broken several "rules" because they're not posted clearly right upon going into Immersion. Apologies for being a piranha!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Usagiboy7
Usagiboy7
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Duolingo has no official guidelines. Instead, they allowed users to put these together and have let them stand (It is a very good list, after all.)

As a crowd sourcing site, we work together to debate, negotiate, and inform one another. I think it's a great idea for when folks find the Immersion Community Guidelines to bookmark the link and then post them whenever an Immersion discussion comes up.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ricaloca

I wish a link to the guidelines could be on the Immersion page.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MsLagerkvist

Yes!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Viaggiatore

I think it's a big problem that you can't see where the downvotes occurred. All you know is that somewhere somebody doesn't like what you did. If you want to know what it was, you have to go over all your recent translations, and that may not even work. So you never know what the problem was.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fleaglebeagle

I think that the problem with immersion is that one correction OVERWRITES the original. As an alternative, I think each submission should be listed beside the previous attempts and we should vote the best one from all submissions. Also posters of corrections or original submissions should be able to delete their submission.... in situations where it is clear someone else's submission is far better. This way we all learn by reading the different interpretations and we have less in-fighting.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SaxyLady
SaxyLadyPlus
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If there are more versions than the one visible I can click a link to view them all and if a previous one is better I can revert back to that one. Maybe this isn't available to everyone yet.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MsLagerkvist

I've been doing Duolingo from the very beginning and every once in a while I try the translations but always give up. It seems like the people who do the Duo translations are experts. I never want to give a down vote--I don't even know how-- but sometimes I think an edit is in order. Yet, my few edits have gotten overridden. The people who translate seem really serious about it, are very invested in it, while I just want to do it to help me learn. If the purpose of Duolingo is to translate the whole internet in order to make it available to everyone, it is going to have to do without timid souls like me.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Chartreux

I also find it frustrating that you cannot lock your article until you're finished with the translation. I began a translation in the morning, took a break of about an hour and found someone else had taken over. I think this is a complaint that many have and hopefully they will address it. This is how duo makes their money and so it's important that they get the immersion environment right.

As a follow up note: I believe in the community collaboration thing, but a person who takes the trouble to search for an article, upload and then begin translation should have at least 24 hours to translate. Once done, I love going back and forth, trying to improve and watching how others improve the sentences. Nonetheless, I want first crack ! ;)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/oskalingo
oskalingo
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I am strongly against the idea of 'locking' articles so you can translate them by yourself in your own little universe. I find the idea and experience of collaborative translation wonderful and I think it is fundamental to the philosophy of duolingo. It has been part of the duolingo concept and vision from the start. If we change that then we risk changing the whole culture of duolingo.

That's not to say that the collaborative translation experience can't be improved. And obviously the duolingo staff are still experimenting with ways to do just that. And it's also not to say that a tool for private translation using the features that the Immersion system gives can't be spun off by duolingo or developed by others. But I don't want to see private translation coming onto the site as I think that would really start to spoil things here.

edit: I see you've added a second paragraph supporting collaborative translation, so it seems we are in happy agreement there. But I still don't agree with the uploader having any private time first. Please see my answer to Ricaloca for my reasons why.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ricaloca

Hmmm. I feel that if I do the work to upload an article, I should have the option to lock it until I'm finished translating it. Maybe have a limited time lock (like a week) in this case?

I'm fine with collaborative translation on open articles - but I hate uploading something & finding that someone else has taken over. I was uploading articles on subjects that interested me, and in doing the work of translation I was also really learning about the subject, thus killing two birds with one stone. I'm very much looking forward to improvements in the Immersion experience that will allow locking of articles to the uploader.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kassandra8286
kassandra8286
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Since joining this site, my understanding has been that immersion is meant to be collaborative, and that nobody "owns" an article once it's uploaded. I would try to look at it in a positive way - if your article was quickly translated by others, that means they found it interesting. You contributed to the community by providing an article to translate. Sometimes it feels like new, interesting articles are in short supply, so they do tend to get jumped on. But as oskalingo said, you can still learn a lot by reading, reviewing, and editing other users' translations. (Hint: it helps to upload long articles, especially lengthy Wikipedia articles. Eager beavers tend to lose interest after the first couple of paragraphs.)

If you prefer to translate on your own without feeling like people are stepping on your toes, you could try readlang.com.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ricaloca

I understand about the collaborative nature of Duolingo's immersion area. But have you ever been in a meeting where you're trying to say something and somebody else repeatedly hogs the floor? That's the sensation I'm describing. It isn't a pleasant one, and I don't think of it as a "collaboration", rather, as a "frustration".

But I'm arriving at my own solution to this. I think I'll just translate articles on my own. Then upload them & my translation at the same time. That will get rid of my irritation with claim jumpers, take care of my learning about the subjects I'm interested in, allow me to contribute to the Duolingo goodness, and THEN review and learn from other collaborators on the translations.

I have to say, though, I really don't see what the problem would be with allowing the uploader to lock an article for a few days. If new, interesting articles are in short supply, why don't translators upload some of their own?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kassandra8286
kassandra8286
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Well, because it's easier to let others do it for them. I will admit it took me a long time to upload my first article, but if I'd known how easy it was I would have done it a lot sooner. (This goes back (again) to the need to have a user guide or FAQ for Immersion.)

I don't know what time zone you're in - I'm in the Pacific, and there seems to be a lot less activity after about 8 or 9 pm. You might have more luck then.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/oskalingo
oskalingo
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I was uploading articles on subjects that interested me, and in doing the work of translation I was also really learning about the subject, thus killing two birds with one stone.

The 'work of translation' here is either doing new translations of sentences that haven't yet been translated or reviewing and perhaps improving on already translated sentences. Both activities are valuable learning experiences which improve your ability in different ways, so you are still getting benefit when someone else joins in. Indeed, I would argue that you are getting increased benefit. And if you review or translate every sentence in an article then you are also still getting the additional advantage of learning about a subject which interests you.

The uploader already gets the reward of working on an article that they have personally selected and getting an 'early start' at it, i.e. they are the first on the scene. I think that's reward enough.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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Although, I partially agree with your idea, I think that sometimes the "piranhas" make it kind of interesting, like a semi-competition. In fact on big articles I welcome this, I translate a bit each day, someone comes, revises it adds new sentences, I revise those add mine, and so forth till we finish it.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Potatosage
Potatosage
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The system works pretty well as it is. If you really want to have "first crack" at an article you upload there is nothing to stop you doing your whole translation before you upload it. For example you could put the text into a Word file, convert it to a one column table split into rows by full stops. Add a second column for your translation, translate the sentences. Then paste the translation one sentence at a time to Duolingo

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ricaloca

Yes, thank you. I had arrived at this idea, but thanks for a good way to implement this.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tmarvin
tmarvin
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I agree. For me at least this is a bigger issue when translating Spanish rather than Portuguese, and the Duolingo learner community feels much larger for Spanish and there are more translators that jump into articles I have uploaded. Since I like to be able to translate an entire article in one go the fear of someone else jumping in makes me feel rushed.

It is particularly annoying when users jump in and translate only the "easy" sentences, like captions and such.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/alsocass

Start simple. Don't try and translate a difficult sentence. Start with the song/chapter/book titles or simple lists. Read other translations and consider them and offer a word substitution (if one is needed). Translate into a language you are fluent with.

I have been using immersion since I first began and never received a downvote, I suspect this is because I am not attempting to translate sentences that are beyond me.

Finally... Translating a sentence is not a waste of time. Sometimes I spend twenty to thirty minutes working on a translation, only to delete it because I know it isn't good enough... It isn't a waste of time, I gain a lot out of the experience.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/manguier1

My experience from yesterday : I translated a text into French, being careful of following the oral like style of the original .. and someone re wrote everything i did in a formal way, and sometimes with innacuracies or even grammar spelling mistakes !! I agree on revising a translation, but only if it is a better proposal !! very frustrating .. and no grip on who is voting or changing things ; I don't think I will do it again.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Potatosage
Potatosage
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On the whole I find that people change what I do for the better: smoothing out clumsy turns of phrase, correcting the typos and so on. But you have to recognise that even those who are actually changing something for the worse believe they are right. Sometimes it's hard to see how they arrived at their translation until you spot the word that in a different context could have meant something else entirely (I've seen "est", the French verb, translated as East for example). That is where the opportunity to explain your edit is useful we also now have the facility to add general comments about the text as a whole which would be useful if you feel a particular style or register is called for throughout the translation.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/adesva
adesva
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I think I might have been a bit early in on the immersion, but I really haven't seen any of the problems with downvoting that are so often mentioned. I'm tier 6 or something, and I can only recall getting two downvotes.

Up- and downvotes seems to have gotten a value greater than the coins, and is thus transforming away from being an indicator of your level of proficiency. What is the tier supposed to represent anyway? How good you are at a language? How good you are at translating? Or simply the effort you put into translating stuff?

Perhaps the best approach would be to simply not display the amount of up- and downvote. They shouldn't really matter anyway.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lesliewalker

How do I get started with immersion? I don't see any directions, and no articles come up. Am I to upload my own?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tmarvin
tmarvin
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If you go to the "immersion" tab there should be partially-translated or untranslated articles under the "new" sub-tab. If you prefer to upload your own articles you should make sure they are not copyrighted. In Spanish places like VOA Noticias and AFP are good sources if you are interested in news articles.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lesliewalker

Thanks. I was able to see Spanish and the translation.

4 years ago