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  5. "Kogo państwo szukają?"

"Kogo państwo szukają?"

Translation:Who are you looking for?

December 23, 2015

115 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/geowoj

Why aren't these split up more? I feel like I'm learning 10 formal ways to say "you" at the same time...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tadjanow

Here's a list of formal yous in nominative case, depending who you're talking to:

one man - 'pan'

one woman - 'pani'

a group of men - 'panowie'

a group of women - 'panie'

a mixed-gender group - 'państwo'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kiddo-depido

And "pana" is genitive of "pan"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/geowoj

Thank you so much!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Stephen_Lay

What about państwa?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jellei

It's Genitive or Accusative of "państwo".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dirack

Yes, I agree. It wouldn't be a bad idea to split this lesson up into two or three smaller segments; to better show the different forms of formal you and what it does with a verb.

Also, I wouldn't mind learning which basic phrases to (not) use in formal situations, e.g. not cześć, dzięki, jak się masz or hej, but dzień dobry etc. It's already going in that direction, but it could use more examples and an explanatory text.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jwkrasow

I think a general greetings section wouldn't go amiss; in what situations do you say "siema" vs "cześć", or what's the difference between "jak się masz", "co tam u ciebie" and "co słychać" regarding level of formality and how do you typically respond to each?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TrevG_123

Agreed, they need a hints & tips section for this one


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chb0lingo

The translations could be better. Like, I might say ”where are you folks going” for "dokąd idzie państwa? 'Folks' is a polite group term


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hughcparker

Polite and formal are not the same thing. E.g.: - "You, sir, are the worst kind of idiot": formal, but extremely impolite. - "Welcome, folks, make yourselves at home. Can I get you anything?": polite, but informal.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tadjanow

'Folks' doesn't strike me as particularly polite. In fact http://www.thefreedictionary.com/folks marks it as informal (definition 2).

More importantly, the translation should be 'Dokąd państwo idą'.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chb0lingo

See here: http://www.learnersdictionary.com/qa/what-s-the-difference-between-folks-and-guys

"Folks is generally viewed as more respectful and polite and therefore tends to be used by adults talking to adults. For example, someone might ask an elderly couple, "Do you folks need help with your luggage?""

This might be a word in transition. I personally would use it to refer politely to a group.

Thanks for the fixup on my sentence. Jeszcze uczy się


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ourwaltz

I disagree with you. Folks is informal. If I were a waiter at a formal restaurant addressing a group, I wouldn't say "do you folks need anything else."

I would simply say "do you need anything else?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chb0lingo

I have had this discussion with others: http://www.learnersdictionary.com/qa/what-s-the-difference-between-folks-and-guys

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/119516/whats-the-difference-between-you-guys-and-you-folks

And, I agree with you to some extend. I think this might be a word in transition from informal to formal depending on the cultural setting.

I can see, and have used "folks" to refer to elderly couples with the greatest of respect. However, too many politicians use it to try and be "one of your pals" so I get the informal part.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sirwootalot

In my corner of the english-speaking world it's quite formal, but I can't speak for everyone else. We usually use "you guys" regardless of gender, or the occasional "ya guyses" if you're REALLY in a colloquial area like a bluecollar neighborhood of the city or a small town.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marcuslawsk

In England, your folls is sometimes used as a way of saying your parents, but is always quite informal. So I would say it is used informally with a preference for elderly people.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/manuna84

I would rather translate 'folks' as 'chłopaki'. Quite informal, imho.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Karen10998

Not a big deal, but the correct English for this is "whom are you looking for?" Not "who are you looking for?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Paula531833

Yay... I was wondering if someone would pick up on that. Or even For whom are you looking? Incorrect to end in a preposition.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lt_Serebryakov

From my understanding, "who" is the subject while "whom" is the object. He/she/it/etc. can be replaced by who, and him/her/it/etc. can be replaced by whom. Oscar threw the ball to Suzie. Who threw the ball? Oscar. To whom was the ball thrown? Suzie.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AOwler

Sorry, but it is correct to say "For whom are you looking?" not "Whom are you looking for?" You dont put ''for" at the end of a sentence, and it looks foolish to be formally correct in one detail (who/whom) but incorrect in another! It's got to be all or nothing!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Karen10998

@AOwler That's a common misconception/myth.

You can definitely put 'for' at the end of a sentence.

Example:

"These are not the droids you're looking for."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

That's an elementary school grammar rule before the 1980s. It no longer applies. You can definitely end a sentence with a preposition.

As much as "who" has overtaken "whom" in common colloquial English, who/whom is still a valid grammar rule just like he/him, she/her, I/me, they/them.

"That's the sort of pedantry up with which I will not put!" - Winston Churchill.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Karen10998

@va-dim Haha did Churchill really say that? That's hilarious.

Also you're giving @AOwler too much credit. It was never even a rule to begin with :p


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AOwler

Exactly. It is very old-fashioned, to insist on avoiding ending a sentence or even a clause with a preposition, and it may sound quite awkward to a modern ear, as Churchill was trying to demonstrate. It is, nevertheless, correct, grammatically speaking! And mis-use of this rule does not sit easily in a sentence in which pains have been taken over the correct use of who/whom! Anyone British remember Nellie Pledge? Do you really want to sound like her?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Karen10998

@AOwler are you referring to the eccentric 17th-century drivel of the late writer John Dryden? He was the first notable figure in the history of English grammar to insist that sentences must not end in prepositions, but it seems his colleagues did not agree with him. He was brilliant and highly respected, for sure, but on this point, he was merely spewing his opinion. Like @va-dim said, it's a style, not a rule.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Not true! You're wrong! It's not a grammar rule! Stop the propaganda!

https://www.englishpage.com/prepositions/preposition-end-of-sentence.htm


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AOwler

Heh heh. Thank you for your link. The sentences marked as "unnatural" are certainly how my father-in-law would have spoken! Well-educated, and well before the 1980s. The phrasal verbs are, I think, pretty modern constructions, so would not have had a more formal/traditional equivalent in earlier days. Adding a noun after the directional verbs would avoid a prepostion at the end, eg go out + of the shop, or wherever (oops)! My Polish is pretty poor, so it does not behove me to criticise others' use of English. I really don't mind in what style you speak, you know! And (oops), by the way, I don't actually speak formally in real life.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/qgLMKxLe

I disagree my friend. Colloquial does not equal correct. Prepositions should be in the pre-position. It is funny to be clowning formal, old-fashioned grammar rules in a lesson about the formal you. I am not sure if that is ironic as I still do not quite understand irony.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Read this: https://www.englishpage.com/prepositions/preposition-end-of-sentence.htm

Language evolves, and that's no longer a grammar rule.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Glen624972

Not to be overly pedantic, but it would be "For whom are you looking?" As Winston Churchill once stated, "Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I shall not put."

;-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

No, this is a myth. This was maybe a very old English grammar rule, but it hasn't existed in English in a very long time.

https://www.englishpage.com/prepositions/preposition-end-of-sentence.htm


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DebbyTeresa

It's acrually For whom are you looking? The correct structure is not to end a sentence with a preposition.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alik1989

Check the Corpus of Contemporary American English:

Who BE PRON *ing for ?

311 results (our main answer)

For whom BE PRON *ing ?

5 results (your suggestion)

If one of those were to be considered incorrect, then it's the latter and yet we still accept it.


https://www.english-corpora.org/coca/


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DebbyTeresa

Do u really want the world of duo learners to speak American English or English English? - perhaps read between the lines here. From where did English originate?,:):) I know its the spoken word but I do think that duo actually should accept the correct English as well- which it hasn't.- Not sure whether it has been changed recently. Duo is great for accurate Polish so ditto for English please.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Modern English originated from Middle English, which was, yes, in England, but both modern British English and American English both evolved out of Middle English. It is not true to say that American English comes from British English. It doesn't. They both come from Middle English. A modern Brit speaks very differently from an Englishman from Elizabethan times. Same thing with a modern American.

In fact, Shakespearean scholars say that his plays sounded more like today's American accent than most of today's British accents.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alik1989

I don't like using the British National Corpus, because it's much smaller than the American one. But feel free to paste the same syntax into the BNC search window and see what happens. Here's the link:

https://www.english-corpora.org/bnc/

I've just checked again, and "For whom are you looking?" has been accepted for many years now.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DebbyTeresa

Thanks for your quick response. Appreciated. I wrote For whom ...last month whilst revising and it wasn't accepted. It could have been another sentence perhaps. Thank you again for your responses. It makes the path of learning alive and interesting.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/daev3000

"Who are you looking for" is standard. But you could also say "Whom do you seek?" which is accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

It's not standard! It's common and has recently become acceptable in English, but the standard is "whom" when used as an object in a sentence. I really wish Duolingo would teach proper, correct English, not mutations. The word "whom" is unambiguously used as the object and does not create confusion. The word "who" does create confusion because using it as both a subject and an object are both acceptable, even though grammatically correct would be to use it only as a subject, not an object.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ten_Pies_I_Brew

"Proper, correct English" is whatever variety of English accomplishes your goals in speaking English. If your goal is to sound refined and educated, then "Whom are you looking for?" is correct. If your goal is to sound casual and relatable, then "Whom are you looking for?" is certainly wrong, because the word "whom" doesn't sound casual and relatable at all.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Not whatever variety. Some varieties and evolutions of words and phrases are correct. Some varieties are purely incorrect slang and are not correct English as defined by linguistics. All languages have guiding rules that change over time. Level of education in those rules matter in its correct usage, otherwise being ignorant of those rules will cause a speaker to choose incorrect grammar and lexicon as defined by the linguistics of the current time.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Karen10998

@Daev3000

'Who are you looking for' is not correct English. It is commonly used, but nevertheless wrong.

"Who/he" are subject pronouns. "Whom/him" are object pronouns. The subject is DOING the looking, the object is RECEIVING the looking.

Example:

Person A: 'He is looking for him.'

Person B: 'Who is looking for whom?'

Person C: 'Yeah, whom is who looking for?'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/daev3000

I know about subjective and objective pronouns, but I think that whether we like it or not, the use of "whom" is dying out in today's English. I think that "whom do you seek?" is more clear and elegant than "who are you looking for", but the latter is so common and widespread that it might as well be considered the standard now.

In the end, your opinion on this will depend on whether you want to take a prescriptive or a descriptive approach to the study of language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/daev3000

I was inviting trouble when I chose the word "standard" above. But using "who" in place of "whom" is very common, and it is the default for most people in most situations, whereas using whom could potentially sound awkward. I'm not against saying whom, but I think people should look at how English is being used today and make their own conclusions.

Anyway, this course is about learning Polish, so let's not got too distracted by discussions on English usage.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

kogo is "whom." Kto is "who"!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/p8c

should we be adding "sir"/"madam"/etc. somewhere in the english translation for the formal you? it seems that is the spririt of this use?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jellei

You can, it surely can help you remember which one is which. Then "pan" would be "sir", "pani" is "ma'am", "panowie" are "gentlemen", and "panie" are "ladies".

However, I am not aware of any natural translation of "państwo". Sometimes "ladies and gentlemen" are correct, but that's rather rare, plus "państwo" can easily mean "one lady and one gentleman"...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lingimen

Kogo is genitive or accusative?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/immery

both, in this sentence it is genitive, because it is what "szukać" needs


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chb0lingo

Yeah, if someone wants to explain to me how I can clearly figure out the difference between dopełniać and biernik, that would be great. "Kogo czego" and "Kogo co" -- which gives not much to work with.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/immery

this might be helpful: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/16569658

(as a Polish native speaker I sometimes check in my mind which form of feminine word sounds OK)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chb0lingo

Genetive is the "possesive" form, but as this shows, it's so much more. Thanks. I am reading it right now


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeanette364461

Thanks for the confirmation it is genitive. But if so, why not Państwa?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jellei

It's the 'who' part that takes Genitive - it's the object that is being looked for ;) "państwo" is just the subject of the sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

"whom" might clarify it better for English speakers, although yes, I know that the incorrect but common form "who" has taken over English to now be considered correct. But for standard correct English, "whom" is the object, like kogo, and "who" would be the subject like kto.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeanette364461

Ah! That explains it. Thanks


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Aran.Nelske

Overall, English lacks specific formal words. We just tack a Mr./Mrs ./Ms. to be formally polite.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Don't forget "Miss."

Polish has that too. Pan Kowalski/Pani Kowalska


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NickFleck

For whom are you looking?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NickFleck

Yes, I got it backwards, so: For whom are you looking?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Stephen_Lay

Isnt it "who are they looking for" because szukają not szukacie?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

In Polish you use pan/pani/panowie/panie/państwo with the third-person conjugation of the verb to address the person or people formally. It's essentially "you [formal]," singular or plural.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JohnOSullivan12

Thank you. This is something that i've been trying to understand for a few weeks. I have a follow up question. How to differentiate between. Who are you looking for? And. Who are they looking for?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alik1989

Since there is no obligatory "formal they" in Polish, you can say: Kogo oni/one szukają? or just Kogo szukają?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jellei

Meanwhile, you cannot omit the formal pronoun, so it will always be e.g. "Kogo panowie szukają?" for "Who are you looking for, gentlemen?". So "Kogo szukają?" will undoubtedly mean "Who are they looking for?".

This is something that always confuses me in Spanish, which works a bit similarly, but can omit the formal pronoun, so one sentence can mean both "Who are you looking for?" and "Who are they looking for?". But Polish is unambiguous here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

On a Spanish sidenote, ustedes just means "you [plural]" in most dialects, not formal. But it conjugates the same as "they." Unless you mean usted which is "you [singular formal]," in which case it conjugates the same as "he/she"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jellei

I did mean ustedes, which is formal in (most of) Spain, and given that I live in Europe it is Castillian Spanish that is of interest to me.

But you are right that my comment was quite imprecise, it isn't like that in Latin America.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KrystynaBu7

I translated as "Whom" rather than "who" and was marked wrong! Granted, "whom" is somewhat formal, but it is correct and should be accepted as an alternative response.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alik1989

'Whom' is accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/joshmcguir11

This translates to whom are you looking for. Not who. In english.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jellei

The native speakers who still use "whom" fought an epic battle with the native spakers who only use "who", but they lost, I'm afraid. We accept "whom", though. And I would use it myself. But really, we have a lot less complaining in the forum since we decided to go with "who".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Glen624972

For whom are you looking? (If we wish to be formal.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Nobody speaks like that, unless it's 1850.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Glen624972

Educated people do.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Check @alik1989 comment up near the top. The Corpus of Contemporary American English results in 311 vs. 5 results your way. If they're "educated," they should know that it's perfectly fine in English to end a sentence with a preposition. If they think that rule still exists in English, then they're education is not up-to-date. To my ears, a person who says "for whom are you looking" out loud, is a pedantic weirdo. All educated people I know, including myself, don't speak like that.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Glen624972

It is not worth my time to attempt to debate grammar with those lacking adequate knowledge of the subject. Have a good day.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Yes, don't debate it with yourself, since you lack adequate knowledge on the subject. Feel free to read this thread from the top. Your topic has been covered thoroughly. "Educate" yourself


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hal417689

Hello! Is it me you're looking for? I can see it in your eyes....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/monteirorogerio

I'm confused. Why is not the sentence: "Kogo państwo szukacie.", since the pronoun used is "you" not "they"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

The formal use of pan uses the third-person perspective


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/monteirorogerio

Oh yes. I had forgotten this. Thank you.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CameronSne5

Why isn't it szukacie?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Because pan/panie/państwo etc. take the third-person perspective, not the second-person, even though they're used to address from the second-person. Ty, wy take the second-person perspective.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CameronSne5

Ok, thanks. I guess then it's like the older English "Has madame had her tablets?" which would also use third person, even when acutally addressing someone


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Great English analogy!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlNzY5

Why is it szukaja (they), instead of szukajsz? Its a question to one person?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alik1989

Państwo is a formal pronoun, which is used to adress multiple people of mixed sex. It's used with the third person plural conjugation of a verb (they), or sometimes with the second person plural, which, however, is less polite.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

I noticed that the vocative case of pan is panie, which is also the feminine plural nominative. So would I address a Polish man formally as Panie the same way as I would refer to two or more Polish women???


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MaryCarson15

Not sure if this applies to singular or plural 'who'?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

państwo is plural, men and women. Kogo can mean singular or plural, as in English "searching for whom" can also be singular or plural.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jellei

"kto" (and its forms, like "kogo") grammatically is always masculine singular in Polish. Even if we are 100% sure that it's about a woman or about several persons.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davidsk4

Sorry, I am getting confused with these tenses. Isn't szukaja for they, they look for?. You look for is szukasz (I think) so it's not that but the infinitive (my dictionary says) is szukac. Where does the szukaja variation come from?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlNzY5

Hey what is your dictionary called? If it helps you understand polish cases i want it !?!?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davidsk4

It's the Collins one. None of the dictionaries are much use for Polish cases, though Collins has the genitive for words, which is of some slight help. I'm not clear on the verb forms either. .....aja is normally for the they form but here it appears as the form for looking in who are you looking for? Maybe all verbs use it as the equivalent of ing?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alik1989

va-diim already answered your question below. Formal pronouns are third-person pronouns in Polish.

"Kogo państwo szukają" translates literally to "Whom do the ladies and gentlemen seek?" But in terms of meaning it is "Who are you looking for"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davidsk4

I see. That will be where the aja of szukaja comes from, then. Thanks.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Yes, you're right. But when you're formally addressing two or more ladies and gentlemen, you say państwo szukają. Pan/Pani/Panowie/Panie is formal, just like in English "Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms." but you use the third-person perspective verb conjugation


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/A.M.Colle

I put "Who are y'all looking for?", but it wouldn't take it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

Because "y'all" isn't a real word. Also, państwo is a formal way to speak to people, whereas "y'all" is as informal as it can get.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alik1989

We do reluctantly accept y'all in other sentences, because it's one of the very few options we have to show the singular-plural distinction in the second person. But I agree that y'all is informal, therefore not being a valid translation for państwo.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/A.M.Colle

If I were speaking formally to a group of ladies I would say, "you ladies", or a group of gentlemen, "you gentlemen", but if it's a mixed group, as I believe, "państwo", implies, "y'all", is what the majority of people in my region would use, formal or otherwise.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jellei

We accept "you all" (which makes "y'all" accepted automatically) for "wy" (so informal 2nd person plural), but this really does not seem to be a good equivalent for "państwo"... it's like substituting "Good evening, ladies and gentlemen!" with "Good evening, y'all!", the register is quite different.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

It's regional/dialectical. Most Americans don't say "y'all." Just like "ain't." I grew up in Arizona & California. I very rarely heard anyone say those colloquialisms.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/A.M.Colle

In a greeting we would say, "Good evening, ladies and gentlemen", in a formal setting as opposed to, "y'all", but when asking questions we wouldn't say, "Who are you ladies and gentlemen looking for?", it doesn't sound right. In that case we'd use, "y'all", regardless of the formality of the situation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alik1989

I respect your opinion, but all major dictionaries classify it as informal, so we're just going to leave it at that.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pl/dictionary/english/y-all


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/A.M.Colle

How is, "y'all", not a real word? Is it because it's a colloquial? Is it because it isn't recognized as proper English even though a good percentage of native English speakers in the U.S., particularly the Southern U.S. use it. The meaning is well understood and it certainly isn't gibberish.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lucianobrazilian

Who you are looking for?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jellei

In English questions, you have inversion. The declarative sentence may be "You are looking for...", but the question is "Who are you looking for?".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeoSundber1

I do not think państwo is directly "you", it should be "you good people" even though that is not usually used in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/va-diim

English doesn't have a "you (plural)" or a "you (formal)." It's just "you."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hot-Doggy

That's not entirely correct va-diim. "You are", in modern English, can refer to both singular and plural "you" — depending on context. For example, when speaking to an individual you might say "I hope to see you later". In this instance you are using the singular "you", however, if you were to say "I hope to see you later" to a group of people, you would be using the plural "you".

As for English not having a "formal you", that's not entirely correct either! Back in the 1970's, there used to be an English television program called "Are You Being Served". The actors played sales staff in a large department store. Whenever they addressed customers, they would invariably use expressions such as, "Is sir/madam being served", "Does madam/sir want to try on the garment?" etc. The sales staff always addressed their customers using the "formal you" as is done in Poland today.

What I am trying to say is that although "formal you" is now archaic, it still exists, but is used very rarely these days. Nowadays, to be extra polite, a salesperson would most probably say something like, "Are you happy with your purchase, madam"? Whereas, in the past the salesperson would have said "Is madam happy with her purchase" — using formal "you".

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