"Ask her later."

Translation:Spør henne senere.

December 27, 2015

8 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/strutseving

Is "seinere" Bokmål? I thought it was "senere" in Bokmål.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/fveldig
Mod
  • 26

Both are listed in the dictionary. 'senere' is the most common variant of course.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Matsukasa

True, but there are two sides of this: written language and spoken language. A quick corpus search shows that in newspapers the word "senere" is used 19 115 times, while "seinere" is used 2256 times in the same material. Note that in the spoken language the situation might very well be the opposite. In the mini-version of the UiO spoken language corpus, "seinere" is listed 4 times, and "senere" only 1. The word "sein" appears 5 times, and there are no instances of "sen" at all (the numbers would probably change in the full version, but the ration shouldn't change that much).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/fveldig
Mod
  • 26

While what you say is probably right (as I myself say 'sein' and write 'sen'), I think it's important to note that any relation between Bokmål and the spoken language are purely coincidental.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Matsukasa

(For some reason I cannot reply to your last message, so I'll insert a quick reply here).

That is true, I might have been a bit too quick, but in my experience (my major is teaching Norwegian as a second languge, and linguistics), I feel that the separation between written and spoken Norwegian is not that clearly understood by all learners, and I just wanted to give some data, not attack your post, so sorry about that!:)

I am familiar with the search engine method, and use it myself, but as you mention, it has its flaws, which is why I prefer to use the more professional databases. If you remember to write your method, other Norwegian teachers will understand that you are not just taking numbers from the air^^

I won't discuss the relationship with nynorsk and bokmål here.

At least we agree on the fact that "senere" is much more frequent in bokmål:P


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/fveldig
Mod
  • 26

(The reason is that there's a limit to the number of replies comments can have on Duolingo, because at some point the replies would be too thin.)

My only concern with professional databases is that they might not include informal language, but no method is perfect...

and I don't worry about attacking my post, critique is always important :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Matsukasa

Yes, which is why I posted the data for written bokmål and spoken languge separately. It is also important to note whether talking about the spoken languge (of an area) or the written language when you say that something is "common", and not use words like "of course" if you cannot find data from a reliable source, like the university corpuses from Bergen or Oslo.

You seem very confident to state that, though. Can you refer to any statistics or research? For me it does not seem like the relation is purely coincidental, however, since textbooks have to follow the written norm, and I would imagine this does affect students' language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/fveldig
Mod
  • 26

The original question asked specifically about Bokmål, so I thought you thought my answer was about the spoken language as well... Oh well!

The methodology I use is simply to count the number of search results which includes the word in a sentence on any search engine. 'senere' is far more common (some results may be due to Danish or Swedish?).

Norwegian do have some rules for spelling, and there is some relation between the way you spell a word and the way you pronounce it. However, there are simply too many exceptions to the spelling and the pronunciation of words to consider Norwegian Bokmål a phonemic orthography, as most of the words' spelling are imply due to how words historically was pronounced (which has changed little in many cases, so the relationship still exist).

Bokmål has evolved from being an Eastern Norwegian language to accepting more non-Eastern Norwegian words and spellings (and is growing somewhat closer to Nynorsk). However, most people would still prefer to write words such as 'senere', instead of 'seinere' or 'senere', as neither reflects the pronunciation in their dialect. Some might write what's closest, but I don't have any numbers on that...

Some authors might use 'seinere' to make a text sound more like if someone was talking, although in that case they might also use several words which are not included in Bokmål.

I think my point is that Bokmål rarely changes its spelling due to a new pronunciation. I don't have any sources for all of this, but it is what I have experienced.

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