Translation:Those men and this woman are eating dinner.
So, just to clarify it for me: it would be tamte kobiety but tamci ludzie? could you also say tamte ludzie or is that wrong?
Tamte ludzie is wrong. Every noun has one and only one gender so you cannot use two different adjectives (different gender) with it.
None of this makes any sense :) I'm not sure how you are supposed to learn this without any explanations
what exactly do you need to know?
tamci= those (plural, for masculine nouns that describe people)
mężczyźni= men (plural nominative form of mężczyna=man)
i= and ta =this (for singular feminine nouns)
kobieta=woman (singular nominative)
jedzą= eat (third person plural , present tense form of jeść)
kolację= dinner/supper (depending on what you call evening meal, we call it "kolacja"),
you need accusative after jeść, accusative form of "kolacja", is "kolację"
Well, your reply has told me more than I've learnt from Duolingo so far, even though I don't understand most of it... It would be far better to actually be told what a "nominative form" was, and how to spot it and what the modifications to the words will be. Picking the one that matches the word I recognise from a list of unrelated words is not helping in being able to understand which to choose. I.e. I've had no idea how to complete a sentence if I had to chose the right version of Man from a list of them, and I don't feel like I'll ever understand it.
Thanks, although I just started reading the first link (about Gender) and very swiftly stopped understanding it! I think I need a beginners beginner guide :)
tamci mężczyżi - this is what i gathered, tamci for people, and yet I just had to reinforce demonstratives and found "tamten mężczyzna" in an exercise. Are tamci and tamten interchangeable for people ? Thanks.
The demonstratives have form dependent on the gender/number (and the case). Let's leave the case aside and deal with only the Nominative, dictionary forms.
So, as "mężczyzna" (man) is masculine singular, it's "tamten". Then you have "tamta kobieta" (that woman), and "tamto dziecko" (that child). The fact that they are people has nothing to do here. It could also be "tamten dom" (that house), "tamta książka" (that book) and "tamto drzewo" (that tree).
Now, we have plural. There are two plurals: 'masculine personal' plural and 'not masculine-personal' plural. Difficult names, but at least they're descriptive. So, 'masculine personal' is used almost only for 'groups including at least one man'. And 'not masculine-personal'... well, for anything else. Women. Dogs. Boxes. Trees.
So the masculine personal version of "that" is "tamci", and the not masculine-personal version is "tamte". And as obviously "those men" include at least one man, it's "tamci mężczyźni".
Just re-reading this and realize how far I've come in 4 months, with a very long way to go. So much to remember ! But at least it is finally clear. Thanks again.
Both these words mean "those". Their counterparts for "these" are "ci" and "te" respectively. They differ in gender, however.
"Tamci" is masculine personal plural, while "tamte" is not masculine-personal plural. The first one is used almost exclusively for groups including at least one male human being, the latter is for everything else - be it women, cats or boxes.
So a group of 99 women and 1 man is still "tamci ludzie" (those people).
is it correct to say "tamte kobiety" ? and... if a group o people doesn't include men can i say "tamte ludzie"?
Yes, "tamte kobiety" is exactly the right way to say "those women".
No, "tamte ludzie" is wrong. Even if a particular group of people doesn't include men (although why not just say "kobiety" then?), the word "ludzie" itself includes men. So it's masculine personal, thus "tamci ludzie".
ahah sorry i'm asking a lot of questions, thank you for all the explanations
Terribly confusing, this! I incorrectly assumed "mężczyzna" has a feminine(żeński) grammatical gender because of the nominative(mianownik) ending with "-a" and the instrumental(narzędnik) ending with "-ą". But if I understand correctly… because the meaning of "mężczyzna" is 'man', a male person, that means "mężczyzna" has a masculine-personal(męsko-osobowy) grammatical gender. Right? I was so desperate to understand this, I started using the Polish Wiki-Dictionary to look things up: https://pl.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/m%C4%99%C5%BCczyzna 'man' … https://pl.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ch%C5%82opiec 'boy' … https://pl.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/kobieta 'woman' … and we've also got… https://pl.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ten 'this' … https://pl.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/tamten 'that' … Click below odmiana for plural, accusative, instrumental etc. etc. and try not to be intimidated :-) :-P There IS some logic.
Hi, can you tell me what is the difference between personal and non-personal in actual terms?
personal- describes people/persons (man, boy, guest, woman, child, teacher, god etc) not personal- describe everything else (cat, dog, book, food, love, economy universe etc.)
but real dictinction in polish language isn't personal-not personal, but masculine personal-other (called not masculine personal)
masculine personal- masculine nouns that describe people
not masculine personal - all other nouns:
masculine nouns that are not masculine personal-don't describe people
feminine nouns, both personal and not personal
- neuter nouns both personal and not personal.
this is how we divide NOUNS into masculine personal/ not masculine personal categories.
there is other issue of when to use "oni"/"one" pronouns, and corresponding adjectives and verb forms, but this comment s already too long.
@Marek and @Maria: Is there any online Polish dictionary easier than Wiktionary? Listing singular, plural in nominative, accusative, instrumental, etc. etc. I would be delighted to know :-) And many thanks for all of the helpful comments of both of you!
Depends… Do you need the meanings too? If so, the only thing I can think of is „Wielki Słownik Języka Polskiego”. but it is still a work in progress, so many words (even some very basic ones) are missing.
But if all you need is the grammar, then I would highly recommend the Grammatical Dictionary of Polish – when it comes to grammar, you would be really hard pressed to find anything better, but it doesn't contain the definitions, just the grammar.
Working on the "reverse tree" I often see "ten/ta/to" translated as "the".
Well, that is that course's contributors' opinion. I personally don't agree with it. Accepting - sure, but it surely isn't the direct translation. Yeah, it helps Polish people understand how 'the' works, but...
Glad to read your opinion. That is just how I have approached it. I accept it when I see it, but I haven't been tempted to use ten/ta/to as "the".