So, if I understood well: pan (litt. sir) -> when addressing to a man pani (litt. lady) -> when addressing a woman panowie (litt. gentlemen) -> when addressing to some men panie (litt. ladies) -> when addressing to some women panstwo -> when addressing to a group where there are both men and women
It is similar to French and Spanish where you say "does the gentelman" or "does the lady". For example Czy pani ma papierosy? Does the gentelman have cigarettes?
It's incredibly formal these days and it would only ever be used by for instance wait staff or shop assistants in an incredibly posh establishment but I think 'does madam speak English?' would be an acceptable translation. At least that's how I mentally translate the formal second person.
Yeah this is the literal translation, but is it really possible in English? "does madam(e) speak" has altogether 12 results in Google...
I would not hear this in my everyday life, but I certainly would hear it on TV--an English speaking butler saying, "Would the lady like tea? Would the gentleman care for some dinner?" Or, as verticordian said, at ridiculously formal establishments. Therefore the phrasing exists all over the English speaking world, just in contrived instances. (But for any English speakers struggling to understand how to use this, think of a butler in an old movie and suddenly pan and pani meaning "you" makes sense)
Okay, adding it does no harm even if it's 'ridiculously formal' (Polish sentence is after all 'totally normally formal'), so it's gonna work now.
I wasn't advocating for change. I think y'all got it right! (I seriously love this program). I understand you are looking for normal conversation, not contrived wording. I just wanted to help an English speaker understand the Polish construction of these formal sentences. We have it, we just don't really use it. Keep up the good work!
Well, if that is technically possible and will make literally three people (the number of reports) in a group of few thousands happy, then I guess why not ;)
Thank you for the kind words!
It is indeed good English, though it is, as she says, very formal and somewhat dated.
Better translation: Do you speak English, ma'am? We have formal nouns in English just no formal conjugations
I'm curious that the vocative isn't used here. Does "Proszę" take genitive?
It does in constructions with Formal You, which I guess you can treat as fixed phrases. It's not "proszę" as in "I am asking for", it's rather like "Excuse me, sir/madame".
By the way, it's a relatively common mistake for Polish people to say "Proszę panią" when they should have used "Proszę pani", and a joking answer can be "Do tańca"? "Proszę panią do tańca" is like "I'd like to ask you for a dance, madame" ;)
As for Vocative, it would work perfectly with people, when actually meaning "please". "Proszę, mamo/tato/Marku/Aniu!" = "Please, mom/dad/Marek/Ania!"
In Polish, do you do the German thing like when addressing somebody with a doctorate? Such as "Czy mówi pan doktor po angielsku?" (male example in this case).
a) they are medicine doctor, even if they don't have doctorate
b) it's a university based situation.
OK. But is not a doctor of medicine a "lekarz"? So would that not be "Pan lekarz" rather than "Pan doktor"?
"Czy pan lekarz mówi po angielsku" is 100% correct, but nobody will say it in such way. Everyone while talking to the doctor will use form "pan/pani doktor" instead of "pan lekarz/pani lekarka".
Presumably, when greeting the "Pan Doktor"/"Pan Ambasador", the Vocative would be required? "Dzień dobry Panie Doktorze / Ambasadorze."?
don't expect logic. the word for a doctor of medicine is "lekarz", the customary polite title is "doktor".
the word for a pharmacist is farmaceuta or aptekarz. the customary title (rarely used) is "magister"
the word for a teacher is "nauczyciel", the customary title used in "liceum" is "profesor" (even if most don't have doctorate)
You can… In fact, for a „Professor zwyczajny”(ie. actual full professor and not 'teaching(or assistant or whatever) professor', it would/could be perceived as impolite or even derogatory not to mention the title. Same goes for Bishops, Cardinals, Prime Ministers(usually Ministers too), Presidents and Rectors.
You can, but it's not obligatory, mention the title for vice-Ministers, Speakers of Parliament(for Speakers of Sejm is mandatory too, I think), Secretaries of State(sekretarz stanu), Ph.D., Ambassadors and priests.
You can and it's overkill, that might(but doesn't have to – all in the context) be perceived as a depreciating jocular manner of speech, mention the titles for MSc(magister), engineers(mgr inż.) and especially for Bachelor's degree/licencjat.
I'd just add that:
1) priests are not "pan ksiądz", but "ksiądz", and bishops and cardinals are "ksiądz biskup", "ksiądz kardynał". And it's obligatory to use "ksiądz", it is seen as really impolite to use "pan",
2) I think in work places like building sites and factories, engineers are called "inżynier" but in places like design office that would be overkill.
The same thing is with "magister", it's used when talking to teachers in universities, but anywhere else it's too much.
Yeah, you just made me realise I put it somehow confusing – it should also be added that when addressing a priest directly it should be „Ojcze”(at least for „ksiądz proboszcz”), for a bishop it should be „Wasza Ekscelencjo” and for Cardinal, „Wasza Eminencjo”.
For ambassadors of Poland it should be „Panie Ambasadorze”/„Pani Ambasador” and for ambassadors of other countries it should be „Wasza Ekscelencjo”.
Obviously, there are also special forms of address for Kings and Queens, but somehow I doubt that will ever be an issue, so I skipped these. ;)
I got distracted and took mówi very literally and put "he speaks". yikes
That would change the meaning of the sentence. You can leave out "normal" pronouns, but if you omit the Formal You form, it's just as if you were asking about some 3rd person that must be known from the context.
So "Czy mówi po angielsku?" would be "Does he/she speak English?".
One can address a woman more formally in English by saying "Madam, do you speak English" and a man by saying "Sir, do you speak English.
That, and the corresponding "Sir," for the version using "Pan" are OK-ish. More likely English would be to drop the title altogether, and just say, "Excuse me, do you speak English?". But that would be a different Polish construction too!
Well yes, we probably wouldn't use the title in most circumstances, but to me that is a different sentence. If I were to be speaking formally to a stranger — like maybe if I were in a fancy hotel or something — I might say "Excuse me, do you speak English, Sir?". And at many schools the students still address the teachers as Miss and Sir. It weirds me out, but they do it.
Added such a word order (we mostly expected 'madam' at the end of the sentence).
"Pani" is indeed nominative here. It is "mówi" and not "mówisz" because "Pan"/"Pani" behave like a 3rd person singular subject. Think of it as "Does the lady (being addressed) speak English?" or "Does Madam speak English?"
Could some shed some light on the 'po angielsku' bit in terms of the case?
I have English (as in in the adjective to speak English) as angielski in the nominative. What case does 'po' make it?
I checked Wiktionary and it came up with angielsku as 'Old Dative'?
Well... Wiktionary for "po" (at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/po#Preposition_6 ) states that "po" takes dative with adjectives when used in the sense of a language. It also states that "Dative adjectives that end in -ski for the lemma take the archaic suffix -sku instead of the usual -skiemu when used with this preposition."
Does that help?