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https://www.duolingo.com/Sandro295382

The order of the words in Esperanto

I'm in the unit of animals in the Esperanto course, and I don't understand the order of this phrase in Esperanto: Kiom da fisxoj vidas la infano? I don't remember if the oration is like this or is Kiom da fisxojn vidas la infano? Just in case, what's the correct one? My other question is: In this phrase (cxu la infano vidas fisxojn?), the subject goes first than the verb. Why in the first one goes first the verb? Thank you very match and, I'm not a native speaker, so I'm sorry if there's something wrong.

2 years ago

15 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Duan
Duan
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Take this with a grain of salt as I haven't been studying Esperanto lately, but for your second question I think word order in Esperanto is fairly flexible. That is why you need the object marker 'n' to make it clear what you mean. The question "Cxu la infano vidas fisxojn?" could also be asked "Cxu fisxojn vidas la infano?" and have the same meaning - the "-n" tells you that it is the child that sees the fish, not the other way around (Technically, I don't know how often 'fisxojn' would be put first in practice).

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SeptimusBones
SeptimusBones
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This is correct. In Esperanto, the object is usually indicated with the accusative form (marked with suffix -n), not by word order. Simultaneously, "Ĉu la infano vidas fiŝojn?" is more common than "Ĉu fiŝojn vidas la infano?", as far as I know anyway.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jzsuzsi
jzsuzsi
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I'm not an expert in Esperanto, but I think in Kiom da fisxoj vidas la infano? there is the question word kiom=how many, so it uses the reverse word order. The other sentence is made of a normal senctence +cxu to make it a question.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sandro295382

So if you use a question word like kiel or kiom you have to reverse the parts of the phrase, but not when you're using cxu. Is that right?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/altindiefanboy

You may if you'd like, but it isn't necessary in Esperanto. There is no such rule in Esperanto grammar. Many people do reverse the parts of the phrase anyway, because many do that in their native language, but it isn't required by any means.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sandro295382

I saw that you have the level 18 in Spanish. I am a Spanish native speaker! If you have any dude to ask me, I will be very grateful to answer the question.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jzsuzsi
jzsuzsi
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With Spanish, I had the problem that I finished the Duolingo tree, but when I met a native speaker, i could hardly speak 1-2 sentences. But now I don't really need it, I did it for fun:)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo
mizinamo
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In English, a "dude" is a person :)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sandro295382

But I have another dude: Do you have to use accusative in interrogative orations? In that manner, it would be 'Kiom da fisxojn vidas la infano?'.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo
mizinamo
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In general, yes, you need the accusative in questions if you are asking about the object.

  • Kiujn librojn vi aĉetis? = Which books did you buy?
  • Kiajn ŝuojn vi ŝatas? = What kind of shoes do you like?

However, you don't use the accusative after "da", like after most prepositions.

Thus:

  • Kiom da fiŝoj vidas la infano? = How many fish does the child see?
2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jzsuzsi
jzsuzsi
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I think you don't need -n here. I went back to the da/de lesson and read things like " kiom da supo vi havas".

But this sentence also contradicts what I wrote earlier, it uses kiom, but still has normal word order. Esperanto is not so strict about word order, so both can be correct.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SeptimusBones
SeptimusBones
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Indeed, a 'reversed word order' is not really a thing in Esperanto, as word order is by design very flexible as it is. It does matter for smaller phrases within a sentence though. The phrase "Kiom da fiŝoj" means "how many/much fish" and as such it nominates the object. The full sentence can then be "Kiom da fiŝoj vidas la infano?" or "Kiom da fiŝoj la infano vidas?" due to previously-mentioned flexible word order.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RudolfFischer

En Esperanto ne la ordo de la vortoj estas (pli-malpli) libera, sed la ordo de la frazopartoj: subjekto, predikato, objekto, frazo-atributoj. Tamen plej ofte la ordo estas: subjekto - predikato - objekto.

Objekto ricevas la markilon -n, sed en kelkaj malmultaj okazoj tio ne eblas. Ekzemple se "kiom" estas la objekto, ne eblas, skribi "Kiom-n".

Alia ekzemplo: "Mi vidas ambaŭ" (ne: ... ambaŭn). 'I see both'

Plia regulo estas, ke demandovorto kiel "kiom" ĉiam staru antaŭe en la frazo, normal-okaze estas la unua vorto de demando. Tiam ankaŭ objekto "kiom" staras antaŭ la subjekto.

La analizo de la frazo "Kiom da fiŝoj vidas la infano?" do estas jena:

"Kiom da fiŝoj": objekto kun la strukturo <demandovorto+<prepozicio>+<substantivo>

"fiŝoj" dependas de la prepozicio "da" kaj ne ricevas markilon -n, ĉar substantivoj post prepozicio restas sen markilo de objekto (tamen eble ricevas la markilon de direkto, kiu same estas -n).

"vidas": predikato

"la infanoj": subjekto

Eĉ sen markilo -n post "kiom" estas klare, kio estas la subjekto kaj kio estas la objekto en la frazo, ĉar "infanoj" estas sen markilo, do la subjekto, kaj tiam por "kiom da fiŝoj" restas nur la rolo de la objekto.

La frazo (speciale nun konstruita de mi) "Kiom vidas ambaŭ?" estas ambigua sen kunteksto :-) Oni ne povas vidi, ĉu "kiom" kaj "ambaŭ" estas subjekto aŭ objekto. Ĉu interese?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ungewitig_Wiht

You can often just do whatever with the word order, especially in poetry. "Libron mian frato via malfermas" is just as valid as the "normal word order" of "Via frato malfermas mian libron" even though one reads "your brother opens my book" and the other appears to read "book my brother your opens".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo
mizinamo
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Though I'd recommend not doing the "crossing adjectives" thing the Romans were apparently fond of doing in Latin poetry and going for "Libron via malfermas frato mian".

The -n's make it "clear" which adjective goes with which noun, but if you used that sentence in conversation, I can almost guarantee you will be misunderstood.

2 years ago