1. Forum
  2. >
  3. Topic: Turkish
  4. >
  5. "There are old women at the b…

"There are old women at the bar."

Translation:Barda yaşlı kadınlar var.

January 16, 2016

13 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Matt-T-T

Barda yaşlı kadınlar var is correct but not eski?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KALKSINordekler

We use (Eski) for Objects And (Yaşlı) for People :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/orde90

eski is the opposite of new so it cannot be used in this sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/judth15

Why cabt we say yaşlı kadınlar barda var??


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MoDan11

This. Sometimes, the suggested answers have the location information like "barda" leading the sentence, but when I try it, I get told my answer is wrong and, since I'm on an iPhone, I lose a life. How do I know when I can lead with the at/on/from words and when I cannot?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YvonneMart905452

Why not kadınları since it is a direct object. ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MoDan11

Disclaimer: English is my native language; I'm learning Turkish. Kadınları would be woman + plural (-lar) + either a third person possessive or an accusative suffix (the -ı). IF it is a direct object then "kadınları" translates to "THE old women are at the bar," I think.

However, I am not sure that is a direct object in Turkish grammar. The sentence literally is "At the bar old women exist." In English, that's a preposition, an adjective, a subject, and a verb, making women the subject of the sentence, not a direct object. That being the case, you'd never put an accusative ending on it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrHilmiNevzat

MoDan11

Hello

"There are old women at the bar." Translation: Barda yaşlı kadınlar var.

Let's remove the plural suffix -lar from the Turkish answer to change the English question.

There is an old woman at the bar. - Barda yaşlı bir kadın var.

Var - "there is" - (adverb)

Yaşlı - old - (adjective) & kadın - woman - (noun)

Insert "bir" between the adjective & noun.

kadın is an indefinite, direct object & goes immediately before the verb. In this case adverb.

Thank you


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MoDan11

Right, neither a subject nor an indefinite object would get the accusative suffix -ı.

I am going to disagree with you though about your breakdown on some of the other grammar though.

First, "there is" is not an adverb in English. Adverbs describe verbs and, in English, usually end in -ly. EX: "Quickly," "actually," etc. "There is" is the verb. "Var" is also technically a verb, I believe, though in Turkish the verb can also provide the subject of the sentence as well. I always try to keep in mind when I am translating and interpreting, that I am inserting "there is" to meet the English grammar requirements in expressing this concept this way. Turkish may not have the same grammar.

"Yaşlı" & "bir" are both adjectives - they describe the noun "Kadınlar." We agree here.

While "kadınlar" is a noun, I can't agree that it is a direct object. A direct object is a noun that receives the action of a transitive verb. EX: Bob catches the ball. "Bob" is the subject. "Catches" is the verb. "The ball" is the direct object because it is what "catches" is acting upon - it receives the action. "Is" is a linking verb though, not a transitive one. See: https://www.uvu.edu/writingcenter/docs/handouts/grammar/typesofverbs.pdf

Where it gets interesting is the fact that we are dealing with Turkish, and while we translate "var" to "there is," it actually means something closer to "exists." "Benim bir kedim var." - Lit: "My one cat exists." but the interpretation is "I have a cat." The sentence here is, "Barda yaşlı kadınlar var." which is literally, "At (the) bar old women exist." If I use that translation for "var" rather than inserting an English "There is" in my sentence, the only possible subject is "women," because the interpretation would be "Old women exist at the bar." I don't think that's necessarily the best interpretation because an English speaker would rarely use "exists" instead of "is," but as I understood the earlier lessons the literal translation is solid.

Another way of finding the subject is by starting with the verb, "are" or "exist" and asking who or what "are" or "exist." The answer to that question is the subject of the sentence, and in this case, "women are" or "women exists." Either way, "women" is the subject.

Finally, in English a sentence must have a subject, and a subject must be a noun. "There" is not a noun, and thus, cannot be the subject. The only noun around is "women." "Women" must therefore be the subject of the sentence.

Subjects never get accusative endings.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrHilmiNevzat

MoDan11

Your explanation is fascinating. I have learnt on Duo that in Turkish grammar, definite, direct objects in the accusative can go anywhere before the verb. The indefinite, direct object nominative case, goes immediately before the verb. The indirect object which is recognised by the dative case suffix goes before the indefinite, direct object.

"Var" in Turkish does not have an equivalent English translation & I do understand its meaning as being "does exist." My Turkish grammar application to the question & answer is based on what I have learnt on Duo.

I find our discussions become protracted & arduous over such simple Turkish questions. I nonetheless enjoy our discussions very much. To use a military metaphor: Let's go around the "Maginot line" & not assault it head on.

Can we agree that there are old woman at the bar & they are the "subject" & they exist. Let's go & chat to them over a drink?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MoDan11

"The indefinite, direct object nominative case, goes immediately before the verb. The indirect object which is recognised by the dative case suffix goes before the indefinite, direct object." I need to think about this and maybe ask my Turkish friend.

And, it's always complicated when we work grammar in one language when translating another - sometimes things shift. For example, Peynir bende. In English, it is "I have the cheese," and "I" is the subject. In Turkish, it's more like "The cheese is (here) with me," where cheese is the subject (which is why it is "peynir" and nor "peyniri."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Omi951

Why kadınlar and not kadın


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MoDan11

Because it is old women (plural) not old woman (singular).

Learn Turkish in just 5 minutes a day. For free.