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https://www.duolingo.com/TonyMintz

Colloquial Welsh

TonyMintz
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Before I begin, I must say that I am ecstatic to begin this course. The Welsh Team did a marvelous job with this language course, and I am very proud of the Duolingo Community for jumping right in and accepting the language with open arms.

However, something is quite strange about the Welsh language, and not just the consonant mutations or the word order. As I do with most languages I learn, I will often search a language's conjugations or etymology of a word to get a better understanding of how it falls align together with other languages. Well, ever since I started the Welsh course, I noticed that there are two very distinct conjugation patterns for the same verb; some in the "literary form" being entirely different from the "colloquial form". And this got me wondering about it. What's the difference between the two forms?

Well, with enough research, this is what I have found. If I am not mistaken, this course is written in the Colloquial Welsh register - an informal and dialectical form of the language used in modern everyday conversation. Basically this register - the form of a language spoken depending on the context and personnel - is the equivalent of the English one would use normally. It's essentially the casual form of the language.

But that got me thinking. Why then is there the second form of the language? More research was needed to find this answer. The Literary Register originates out of Middle Welsh - the form Welsh language underwent during the 12th to 14th centuries. Today, it is used in very formal and written text, although it is hardly ever used contemporarily. The English equivalent of it would be like using the obsolete second-person singular pronoun Thou in a sentence rather than You, I suppose.

Either way, it is a very interesting; seeing how the historical components of a language will still be maintained after the language itself has moved on and continued to develop.

2 years ago

14 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/SirFurboy
SirFurboy
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Yes, you are quite right. Welsh literary forms are much more different from spoken forms than in other languages. I am not sure the conjugations are totally different. Once you understand a range of pronunciations, and some contractions you can see how you get from one to the other.

This, incidentally, shows why Google translations can be very obvious when translating from English to Welsh. Google works by taking hundreds or thousands of parallel texts. Any text that is available in both English and Welsh is used and they then search for patterns and translations in one language to produce the translation from the parallel passage. They then apply a weighting algorithm to take the best consensus translation from various texts.

The problem is that the greater corpus of Welsh scanned literature is in literary Welsh. I am not sure if modern novels, which tend to use a more natural Welsh are included in their search algorithm, but more often than not the consensus translation from Google favours something that can sound very formal.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MrGWallCymraeg

Shwmae, TonyMintz. You're correct - the Welsh taught on the course is the kind of Welsh you'd hear on the street - informal at most times. The difference between literary and colloquial Welsh can be huge sometimes, with the literary and colloquial registers looks completely different even if they mostly say the same thing.

For example, the course teaches dw i ddim yn hoffi coffi but this can be dydw i ddim yn hoffi coffi (a little more formal, the kind of Welsh expected in Welsh language schools) and even nid wyf yn hoffi coffi which is even more formal.

Hope you're enjoying it! Keep it up :D

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BeckyJeff

I was wondering why the southern form "dych" is used instead of "ydych" in the course? I find "ydach" most natural when speaking in the north, but "ydych" would seem the most natural neutral form in my experience. Llongyfarchiadau ar y cwrs a gadewch i mi wybod os oes modd i mi gyfrannu :)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/rmcode
rmcode
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'dych' is standard in Welsh for adult courses, and a bit more standard throughout Wales than dach, but dach is accepted as an answer

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BeckyJeff

Fair enough, I guess courses are heavily influenced by south welsh. Thanks for the reply :)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ElizabethS746001
ElizabethS746001
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I love learning the history of languages and how they change over exposure to other languages and form spoken to written.,

I love the Welsh language, it is beautiful, like Irish. And finding it here on Duolingo has been a blessing.

When people find out I am learning Welsh, or Cymraeg, they immediately want to know where I found a course, period, let alone free!!

I share Duolingo with everyone who wants to learn any language. It is a great tool.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SteveLando
SteveLando
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What form of Welsh is normally used in ordinary newspapers, in novels, in academic litterature - on wikipedia?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SirFurboy
SirFurboy
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The Welsh being taught on Duolingo is close to what you will generally find in print. There are some distinct Welsh dialects (mainly North and South), and a book may be written in dialect - indeed it generally has to choose one - but it is very rare to find the literary forms in novels or newspapers.

I used to subscribe to "Barn" and "Golwg" and there was a marked difference between them. Barn was more academic and gave you a thorough introduction to some passive voice forms that you rarely hear spoken. Golwg was much more like the spoken "Cymraeg Llafar". However neither used the full literary register.

You are best off with Cymraeg Llafar, and honestly, once you understand that reasonably well, the literary forms become less scary.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SteveLando
SteveLando
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Thanks for your good reply

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ibisc
ibisc
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Welsh has a range of registers from the very colloquial ( as heard in soap operas such as Pobol y Cwm and Rownd a Rownd) to the biblical (as seen in the 1955 version of the Welsh bible, say). The BBC Cymru news site uses a middle of the road register common in the media. Novels range around the registers depending on the author and the audience, although many will use a colloquial register and vocab for quoted speech and a more formal register for narrative. Academic work tends to use a more formal register than media articles.

There are 4-6 main dialect areas, depending on how you define them.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RoseHedges

I always suspected that Welsh was the one language that required a super spy decoder ring - now I know it! lol

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RobertEddy
RobertEddyPlus
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Would be interested to hear a comparison of the two varieties of Welsh with the two varieties of modern Greek, the kathourevosa and the demotiki.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/gwyndaf_parri

Hi, I'm a native Welsh speaker. Nobody speaks the formal written language, it is only used for writing. When people read, they even change their pronunciation, for example a Northerner would pronounce "bore" as though it was spelt "bora" unless they were reading. I don't change pronunciation myself and find it annoying, but it is what it is. The closest you would get to hearing the formal language spoken would be on a news bulletin, but that isn't completely formal. The formal written language is standard and has no regional variations.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RobertEddy
RobertEddyPlus
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Thanks for the helpful overview!

1 year ago