https://www.duolingo.com/Fantomius

How would I say that someone makes me do something?

I've trying to figure out how to say in Esperanto that someone makes me do something, such as:

  • My mother makes me read that book.

At first I thought I would use the -ig- affix with legi (to read), but then I got confused when I noticed there would be two direct objects (min and tiun libron):

  • (Possibly incorrect) Mia patrino legigas min tiun libron.

After thinking about it for a while, I realized that I've only ever seen -ig- used for converting adjectives and intransitive verbs to their transitive counterparts; that is, I've never seen them turn an already-transitive verb into a "further-transitive" verb.

I know that in some other languages, the sentence I'm trying to translate is closer to:

  • My mother makes that I read(subjunctive) that book.

If this is how Esperanto would translate it, then maybe one of these is a better translation:

  • Mia patrino faras ke mi legu tiun libron.
  • Mia patrino faras ke mi legas tiun libron.

And sometimes, you can even use the infinitive, like this:

  • My mother makes me read(infinitive) that book.

Translated directly to Esperanto, this would be:

  • (Possibly incorrect) Mia patrino faras min legi tiun libron.

Then again, maybe the first form (with -ig-) is perfectly acceptable, but since the sentence has two direct objects, one of them can be used with je:

  • (Possibly incorrect) Mia patrino legigas min je tiu libro.

What are your thoughts? How would you translate "My mother makes me read that book"?

Or this even simpler sentence: "He made me do that." ("Li faris min fari tion", maybe?)

February 3, 2016

16 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/zubiz

After thinking about it for a while, I realized that I've only ever seen -ig- used for converting adjectives and intransitive verbs to their transitive counterparts; that is, I've never seen them turn an already-transitive verb into a "further-transitive" verb.

La patrino manĝas pomon.

La patrino manĝigas pomon al la bebo / La patrino manĝigas la bebon per pomo.

February 3, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

"La patrino manĝigas sian bebon..."

...al leono.

...per kaĉo.

"The mother feeds her baby..." - "...to a lion" / "...(with) porridge".

February 4, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Fantomius

Okay, I guess I have seen manĝigi used like:

  • La knabo manĝigas la hundon. (The boy feeds the dog.)

But I'm still puzzled as to how to insert an object to feed to the dog. Maybe with:

  • La knabo manĝigas la hundon per viando. (The boy feeds the dog using meat.)
February 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/zubiz

Yes, I think that's one of the two ways. Both I and Mizinamo gave 2 examples to signify there are multiple ways of expressing what is given to whom.

A fun discovery is that the -n ending can either signify the recipient of food or the food itself, depending on the rest of the sentence. It seems to be the reason why Mizinamo broke his example sentence into parts and made a common initial phrase and 2 alternative endings, ie, to signify those two ways.

La patrino manĝigas sian bebon : The mother feeds her baby.

La patrino manĝigas sian bebon al leono: The mother feeds her baby to a lion. (Giving her baby as food to a lion ).

La patrino manĝigas sian bebon per kaĉo: The mother feeds her baby with porridge.

Example from PMEG:

Li trinkigas sian ĉevalon. → Li igas sian ĉevalon trinkanta.

Li trinkigas akvon (al la ĉevalo). → Li igas akvon trinkata (de la ĉevalo).

February 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Vanege

Mi skribus: Mia patrino igas min legi tiun libron.

Mi dirus : Mi legas tiun libron pro mia patrino. (Sed la senco ne estas tute sama)

February 3, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Fantomius

Thanks for your input, Vanege.

Your suggestion of the use of igas looks good to me:

  • Mia patrino igas min legi tiun libron. (My mother makes me read that book.)
  • Li igis min fari tion. (He made me do it.)

And now that I think about it, I could also use the verb devigi (to compel, to force) in place of igi:

  • Mia patrino devigas min legi tiun libron. (My mother forces me to read that book.)
  • Li devigis min fari tion. (He forced/compelled me to do that.)

I still wonder if faras can take the place of igas, and if there are any other common ways to say this.

February 3, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/wardgian

Yes for example purigas means faras pura. Venigas (iun) means faras (iun) veni. According to Seppik's grammar among others.

February 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Fantomius

As for using "devigi", I just found an example of it in the short story "Adamo kaj Eva":

http://mek.oszk.hu/04100/04163/04163.pdf http://mek.oszk.hu/04100/04163/html/

In chapter 5, there is a sentence that reads:

  • Literally written: [Oni uzas] "igi", se oni faras ion aŭ devigas iun fari ion.
  • Shortened version: Oni devigas iun fari ion.
  • Translation: One compels someone to do something.

So, using this construct:

  • My mother made me read that book.

could be translated to:

  • Mia patrino devigis min legi tiun libron.

Assuming this is correct, it is just another way of saying:

  • Mia patrino legigis al mi tiun libron.
August 4, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/mensogulo

You can't say "Li faris min fari tion"

He made me do that means 1) to force (devigi) 2) to encourage (kuraĝigi)

1) Mia patrino devigis min legi tiun libron. 2) Mia patrino kuraĝigis min legi la libron

February 3, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/wardgian

Seppik's Esperanto grammar clarifies that "Mia patrino vekas min" means she does it herself, while "Mia patrino vekigas min" means she gets some other agent to do it. If I get this right, then "Mia patrino legigas min" would mean that she gets some other agent to read me.

February 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/zubiz

I think not, because the expected object of vekas is a person, that's why vekigas min implies a third person. But the normal object of legi is the material to be read, so "Mia patrino lagas min" would mean "My mother reads me.". Legigas min should mean "made me read.", just like in "Li trinkigas sian ĉevalon."

February 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

Indeed.

(Though "legigas min" could also mean "made something be read" - I think "legigas libron al mi" could work for" made me read a book".)

February 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/wardgian

Okay this has all forced me to dust off my PIV... it clarifies very nicely what to do with -ig- on transitive verbs, and gives a very clear and fitting example: Trinkigi ĉevalon je akvo. Other transitive usages can use other prepositions as appropriate. Trinkigi akvon al ĉevalo. PIV also helpfully compares -ig- on a transitive verb with use of a participle: Igi ĉevalon trinkanta or Igi akvon trinkata. Hope this helps. :)

February 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Fantomius

Someone just gave me a link to a page that addresses the use of -ig- with two objects.

According to http://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/eo/colloq/colloq120.html , if you want to say:

  • She made him buy a house.

you translate him to al li, like this:

  • Ŝi aĉetigis al li domon. (She made him buy a house.)

A few more examples:

  • Mia patrino legigas al mi tiun libron. (My mother makes me read that book.)
  • Li farigis al mi tion. (He made me do it.)
  • La knabo manĝigas al la hundo viandon. (The boy feeds the dog (some) meat.)
March 3, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Fantomius

I recently found published text in Esperanto that has as an example of this:

In page 4 of the book "Tinĉjo en Tibeto" (the Esperanto Edition of "Tintin in Tibet"), there is the following dialogue:

  • Tinĉjo (ĝoje): 'tagon, Professor'! ... Granda novaĵo! ... Mia amiko Ĉang alvenas! ... ĈANG! MIA AMIKO ĈANG! ...
  • Profesoro (kiu estas surdema): Ĉampanon? Je tiu horo?
  • Tinĉjo (kantante kaj dancante): Ĉang alvenas! ... Tra la la!
  • Profesoro (riproĉe al la kapitano): Vi tute malpravas trinkigi ĉampanon al tiu knabo tiel frumatene! ...
  • Kapitano (konfuzata): ?

Traduko:

  • Tintin (joyfully): Mornin', Professor! Great news! My friend Chang is arriving! CHANG! MY FRIEND CHANG!
  • Professor (who is hard-of-hearing): Champagne? At this hour?
  • Tintin (singing and dancing): Chang is arriving! Tra la la!
  • Professor (reproaching the captain): You are completely wrong to make that boy drink champagne so early in the morning!
  • Captain (confused): ?

So evidently the "direct-object-of-the-direct-object" (I don't know how else to say it), which is in this case ĉampanon, remains in the accusative keeping its -n suffix, while the other "not-completely-a-direct-object", which in this case is tiu knabo, gets placed after the preposition al (without any -n suffix).

April 11, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Fantomius

I found another example of this in page 17 of the book "Tinĉjo en Tibeto" (the Esperanto Edition of "Tintin in Tibet"):

  • Esperanto: Sed ĉifoje, mi ne havigos al ili tian ĝojon.
  • English: But this time, I will not give them the satisfaction.
  • (More literal: But this time, I will not make them have that kind of pleasure.)
April 27, 2016
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