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  5. "Would you prefer to leave no…

"Would you prefer to leave now or later?"

Translation:Fasai'n well gyda ti adael nawr neu nes ymlaen?

March 4, 2016

36 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RowenaJane

I learned in classes that there were two dialects, north and south and since I have only learned south I am finding Duolingo is totally confusing me instead of helping me progress.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ibisc

There is actually very little in the course which is peculiar to any particular one of the several dialects (there are in fact more than two - 4-5 main dialects is more like it). Which things are causing you a problem at the moment?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

There aren't even four or five, but rather a whole range of variations, just like English. North and south are convenient categories used to teach beginners easily, but different parts of the north speak differently as does south/west/mid Wales.

On the whole Duolingo seems to favour the forms in the southern textbooks and then add bits of northern language in where it differs greatly. Also, the speech synthesis is based on an southern accent. So it surprises me a bit that learning in the south you're confused.

As @ibisc says, let us know what's causing you problems and we'll try to help.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

That's right, I remembered there were dialect differences that people were being confused by, but I had forgotten that it was usually northern people thinking the course was too southern.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

Yeah, the bias is towards the southern courses, has to be said.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

Yeah, it seems to be stronger up north. For "some knowledge of Welsh" the 2011 census has Gwynedd and Anglesey at 73% and 69% respectively. Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion (south-west) are next with 57%.

However, number-wise that means 105,032 people in Carmarthenshire and 88,853 in Gwynedd. And the third largest county is Cardiff with only 16% but 54,504 speakers.

There are more learners of Welsh in the south, which is why on WJEC exams for adults the southern terms always appear before northern ones.

Welsh has had a standard for centuries, but in the literary form of the language, which is nobody's native dialect and is deemed too far from speech these days to be practical in many areas. A more colloquialised version of it seems to be more acceptable these days and as a Welsh speaker from day to day this is what I see most people use. The place I see the most controversy over north and south is with (some) Welsh beginners. Most other people seem to get on just fine.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

Purely as a foreigner, I guess that makes sense to me, since there is a larger population and more cities in the South. There are more purely Welsh-speaking areas in the North, though, right? I can see why establishing a standard language appears to have been so controversial.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

The written language does appear to be quite different. Of course, I haven't been in Wales since 1987, so that's the only language I am ever likely to use.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

Would it help to think of it as learning a new language? This dialect difference does appear to be quite striking. Perhaps the problem comes in thinking of it as Welsh, a language you have learned, rather than Northern Welsh, a language you do not know, because you only know Southern Welsh.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RowenaJane

Thanks everyone for the input, I am confusing you all too by what I wrote because I wrote 'south' when I meant 'north' - shows how confused I am! I am a learner (English native ) living and learning in Gwynedd (to be precise) not south!! So I did 2-3 years learning 'north welsh' that's why much of what Duo lingo teaches is so different---- and it is particularly difficult now because I am hitting things I haven't yet learned (future and conditional) and I am struggling to know which is the version spoken up here. Whenever I see 'gen I' I feel I am 'home'. 'Gyda fi' is 'foreign' --as examples---


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

Oh right, that makes more sense, haha!

The future forms taught in the north for the positive statement are:

Mi fydda i

Mi fyddi di

Mi fydd o/hi

Mi fyddwn ni

Mi fyddwch chi

Mi fyddan nhw

The conditional forms are:

Mi faswn i

Mi faset ti

Mi fasai fo/hi

Mi fasen ni

Mi fasech chi

Mi fasen nhw

For both of these tenses you drop the Mi in the question, and drop the Mi and add ddim in the negative:

Fyddi di?

Fasen nhw ddim

Also, as both are forms of bod "be", they need yn when you add a verbnoun.

Mi fyddwn ni'n mynd

Mi fasai fo'n helpu

Fyddi di'n dŵad?

Fasen nhw ddim yn gyrru


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RowenaJane

Thank you so much for your input.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MattJones596690

why doesn't 'hwyrach' work in this instance?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

I guess it could but it's just more natural when "later" means "later on" to translate it as nes ymlaen or perhaps wedyn.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AliT.Firef

I was just going to ask why 'wedyn' didn't work? I wasn't confident enough to report it - should I have?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

Nes ymlaen sounds better but wedyn should also work. It's hard to be categorical on Duolingo because none of the sentences have any context, hence why there are sometimes so many possible answers.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

Efo chdi? I must admit to being awfully glad that it is only the Irish and Welsh Duolingo pages that try to teach multiple dialects simultaneously. I hope the English pages are not trying to teach the dialects of Perth, Manchester, and New Orleans simultaneously.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ibisc

Duo teaches a pretty standard Welsh with occasional additional examples of dialect pronunciations or words that are commonly heard in the media, for example. There are many more dialects than the very misleading 'north' and 'south' - 4-6 of them is more like it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

Are they sort of clustered around two prestige dialects? We seem to hear only of north and south here, while on the Irish boards I seem to remember at least three standards, a sort of Munster, Connaught, and Ulster.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ibisc

No, not really. There is no set 'standard' Welsh, especially for the colloquial register. For more formal registers, people would look to the main grammar reference books such as 'Gramadeg y Gymraeg' by Peter Wynn Thomas (in Welsh only - don't buy it for a while yet!). If you read the BBC Cymru news, or a general magazine such as Golwg then those tend to be written in a register of the language which is widely understood, although individual writers may use some vocab and structures which are more typical of one region than others. That is why it is important to be aware of some of the common variations in the language, even as a beginner.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

Thanks for the recommendation. As you say, not now, but maybe some day.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EllisVaughan

The difference with Welsh is that we have no standard form (unlike say English or German). So unless we can have two separate courses each dialect has to be treated equally.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Well, the Portuguese course deliberately teaches only Brazilian Portuguese, and the Norwegian one only Bokmål spelling (though I think it accepts some Nynorsk grammar, e.g. feminine nouns). So they could conceivably have decided to teach only southern Welsh, or only northern.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EllisVaughan

True, but with the other two, the majority of Norway uses Bokmål and Brazil is a the main dialect of Portuguese in separate countries. With Welsh, all dialects are accepted in the one country and all are treated equally whereas in Brazil they wouldn't accept 'Portuguese' Portuguese.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

They would, though they would recognize you were from Portugal, precisely as I can understand that someone who calls what I know as a truck and an elevator a lorry and a lift is from Britain, and I would accept those terms in a written submission. Languages like Slovak, Romanian, and Croatian had various local standards, all of which were fiercely defended as national standards, but in each of those countries, it was recognized that the flourishing of the language would require one national standard that all children and newcomers would be taught, so various compromises were made. Regional variations, often quite significant, do remain, and will mark out the origin of a writer, but they are certainly not things that would be taught to a foreign student, until he has a mastery of the basic standard grammar and vocabulary. I would have said it was a matter of Irish and Welsh not being the language of a majority of the populations in their respective countries, but I see none of this on the Catalan board. They have adopted a standard language all foreigners are taught, though if one is going to Valencia or the Balearics, one might want to learn a bit more about how the language is spoken there specifically.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EllisVaughan

Yes Catalan does have an official standard, but as I have said there is NO SUCH THING for Welsh and as a result it would be wrong to favour any of the dialects. Maybe it would be better for Welsh to adopt a standard form but this has NOT happened and won't happen until enough Welsh speakers ask for it. What I meant by won't accept 'Portuguese' Portuguese is that they won't accept those spellings in exams or official documents, in the same way that I am marked wrong for writing "color" or "favorite".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

@Brighid: That proposed standard which was nobody's mother tongue would be Cymraeg Byw, right?

I've also heard that it caused disconnects between students who were told to learn forms that were rather different from what they heard on the streets around them every day.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Brid-Eilis

I think a standard was tried out in the last century, but it was rejected by Welsh people, and rightly so. I wish we didn’t have a standard in Irish, I absolutely hated it in school. And it corrupted my own native dialect. Standard Irish is an artificial language (Welsh would be too). Unlike English where the Queen’s English is spoken naturally by millions of people, standard Irish isn’t spoken natively by anybody, it is the language of learners. So I totally understand where Ellis is coming from. Welsh has two main dialects, it’s not hard to pick one to study, and have a knowledge of the other.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Brid-Eilis

@ mizinamo: Cymraeg Byw - yes.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

Oh, I had thought there was a language authority and laws establishing certain language practices. English, though, at least in the United States, has no official standard. I do not mark students wrong for writing "colour" or "favourite," though I will point out to them that they are more typical of British and Canadian practice than American. Even when I was marking Advance Placement exams, a national standardized exam, we did not mark anyone wrong for using British or other spelling conventions. There are, of course, languages I have come across that do not have a single standard for teaching foreigners, such as the various Sami and Mordvin languages, but as someone who has mostly studied Eastern Europe, I am just surprised that any language that has been invested with a sense of national identity has not developed a single standard for things like newspapers and university education.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

Fyi Fasai'n well efo chdi is wrong in this sentence. In north Wales gan would be used, so Fasai'n well gen ti....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ieuan-Jones

Efo chdi are both North Walian words, and have both been introduced at this point in the course. Saying that, the correct answer I'm seeing under the question here uses gyda ti.

The problem with Welsh, is that your likely to come across both dialects in Wales. Right now I'm reading a book I bought in the south, that's written in northern Welsh - even in night classes deep in the South, they still teach us the north and south variants of words we come across.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ibisc

Four to six main dialects, not two :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ieuan-Jones

Do the dialects change much going west? I remember being down that way once a few years back and the Carmarthen/Swansea speakers disagreeing on quite a few words.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ibisc

Different dialect versions of dydw i ddim..., for example:

  • so i'n...
  • smo i'n...
  • sana i'n...

On Youtube there is a Pembrokeshire song in dialect -"Wêdd hi'n wer" (Roedd hi'n oer)

There are quite a few Youtube extracts of a series of programmes, 'Ar Lafar', on Welsh dialects that was broadcast last year. Some are also available here, with attached notes (in Welsh) - http://llyfrgell.porth.ac.uk/library?q=ar+lafar

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