https://www.duolingo.com/94BlueLane

Polish pronunciation

94BlueLane
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Hi guys!

I'm really struggling with Polish pronunciation. The examples for the pronunciation of consonants just don't seem to add up to me:

  1. dź niedźwiedź jeans [ʥ] ::::::::::
  2. dż dżem jam [d͡ʐ] / [ʤ]

To me, the 'j' in "jeans" and "jam" sound exactly the same... Maybe there is a minute difference in that the mouth position changes due to the different vowels that come after the 'j'?

I have the same situation here:

  1. ś cześć sheep [ɕ] ::::::::::
  2. sz proszę ship [ʂ] / [ʃ]

I just can't see how they justify different IPA symbols.

Can anyone help me out here? Any help would be appreciated! (Sorry for the weird layout; I've tried to edit it but it doesn't seem to register spaces!)

2 years ago

21 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/apscis
apscis
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I'm suspicious of that example, as I have no idea how the "sh" of English "sheep" and "ship" are different in any way.

I'm not entirely sure if my method is correct, but I've been learning Polish for a while and I've been told I have good pronunciation.

I pronounce the "ś," "ć," and "ź" sounds (along with their digraphic counterparts "si," "ci" and "zi") as in (American) English "sheep," "cheap" and "pleasure." Likewise, "dź" (just "ź" with an alveolar stop before it) as in "jeep."

However, with the "hard" sounds ("sz," "cz," "ż/rz"), you want to curl your tongue slightly so that the tip creates friction against the alveolar ridge. No other part of your tongue should be touching your palate. If you do it right, when saying "sz" there might be a slight whistling sound as the air passes over the tip of your tongue through your teeth. If you listen to a Polish person say "czas," for example, and then "ciasteczka," the first word sounds more like the tongue tip punching the alveolar ridge, almost like a 't' sound with friction, while the second is gentler. With sounds like "dż" or its voiceless counterpart "trz," you do the same thing but press your tongue against the ridge and release the stop.

Now, if only I could hear the difference between the initial sounds of "chyba" and "hałas"!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mihxal
mihxal
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Now, if only I could hear the difference between the initial sounds of "chyba" and "hałas"!

Actually, there is no difference. There used to be difference but it practically disappeared and most people pronounce "h" and "ch" in the same way.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/94BlueLane
94BlueLane
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You, sir (or madam), deserve a lingot simply for teaching my body to do something it had never done before: I had no idea I could make a whistling noise like that! I got way more excited than I should have...

Have a second lingot for helping me with my pronunciation so effectively!

Thank you! :)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/apscis
apscis
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Nice, I'm glad I could help! No worries, I felt similarly when I discovered it, trying over and over again to pronounce "trzy" correctly. Phonology is really a kind of exercise; ear, mind and muscles all need to cooperate, and sometimes it takes a surprising amount of effort to successfully make a sound some other culture figured was simple enough to feature in a common numeral!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Vengir
Vengir
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Funny thing that "some other culture" would find properly pronouncing that same numeral in English rather challenging. We can probably achieve understandable pronunciation easily, but perfecting it… especially with those "th"s and a much wider set of vowels is really hard to us.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/immery
immery
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Yeah. It always sounds like free or tree when I say it :P

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Vengir
Vengir
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@LICA98: It generally shouldn't (I've heard Londoners might pronounce it with an "f" though). Anyway, this is the closest thing if you can't pronounce the real "th". Better this than nothing.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/immery
immery
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some people in Kraków say cz and trz exactly the same.

My last name starts with "cz", and I learned to always say "Cz....; with ce-zet" when somebody (in Kraków) asks for my name

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LICA98
LICA98
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  • 634

isn't that how it's pronounced anyway?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Merrowmic
Merrowmic
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Maybe this can help:

dź - plea-(d)s-ure (softer, fluid)

dż - gem (harder, more abrupt)

ś - softer, less audible sh

sz - harder, more audible sh, almost fricative (shred)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/1024252586

This is how I'd go about it

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Piotreque
Piotreque
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The thing is, neither dż nor dź are exactly the English j.

You pronounce j in jeans with your tongue touching upper teeth (or upper alveolar ridge), right? To pronounce dż you also have to touch the alveolar ridge with your tongue, but only with the tip of it.

Now try to say dż but with your tongue touching lower teeth (while tongue lying flat). That's dź.

Ofc this differentiation works for all these weird Polish letters (sz-ś, cz-ć and so on).

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/94BlueLane
94BlueLane
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Thank God for my linguistics course at University! That, coupled with your response, has helped me make more sense of this :) Thank you and have a lingot!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/adrian.cue
adrian.cue
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In niedźwiedź is like niedshwiedsh, and dżem d is mute, is only like (gem), haha im just listening to my polish wife.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Vengir
Vengir
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>d is mute

That's actually not how Polish orthography works. Just like you would never say that in English "th" the letter "h" is silent, Polish „dż” is a single sound. Basically the only kinda silent-ish letter in normal Polish words is „c” in „ch”.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/immery
immery
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well there is ł in jabłko, and ć in dziewięćdziesiąt. But those are rare exceptions.

And I can't believe English native speakers would have much trouble with two letters one sound- they have th, sh, ch, oo, ee

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/adrian.cue
adrian.cue
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that's how you interpret it, maybe you are polish, i am mexican so for me is different way to see how is better to pronounce your words.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/immery
immery
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But are you sure you are not making it harder?

Is making your own rules easier than following ones that exist? if you decide that sz, cz, rz, dz, dź, dż, have one letter silent, but other creates different sound then normally,?

I as a Polish speaker know that letter "s" is this sound, but if you mix sz and si it means "s" can be three sounds.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/adrian.cue
adrian.cue
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There is a part in history, when Spanish arrived to Mexico and as they couldn't spell or pronounce letter X, they wrote down MeJico. As for them sounded the same (or the most similar possible). I am just interpreting polish and other languages in a different way, still understanding the grammar and speaking differences. Is the way is better for me to learn and faster. But each of us could stick 100% to the "rules". Nie??

2 years ago
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