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"Information, savoir et communication"

Translation:Information, knowledge and communication

January 23, 2013

48 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/borodino

It should be "L'information, le savoir et la communication. Le savoir=knowledge. Without the article, it is not a noun according to Collins Robert Dictionary. It has been reported.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nzchicago

There are instances where you can leave off articles, such as in titles of books


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PeaceJoyPancakes

Also (because a recent commenter seems to have missed it):


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/comqrgo

Doesn't help - book titles don't have to be grammatically correct


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jorge.a.me1

This reminds me of the mottoes across the coats of arms of universities. In the US they are generally in Latin, but I have also seen them in Spanish. And they generally omit articles. The one for Yale for example is "Lux et Veritas" which would translate to the English "Light and Truth," the Spanish "Luz y Verdad" and the French "Lumiere et Verite" also, one must not forget the motto of revolutionary France: "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite," which is generally translated without any articles.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PeaceJoyPancakes

Book titles typically adhere to a certain grammar. Also:


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/aliyah88

Or la connaissance


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GregoryCasteel

Is the Oxford comma not normally used in French, or is it treated as optional as it is in English?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SkiThe802

I have the same question. I am of the opinion it should always be used in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PeaceJoyPancakes

I'm with you. However, in French it's not typical, except where each subsequent term (and not just the final term in the list) is preceded by a conjunction:

  • La terre était belle, et riche, et féconde (Lamennais, Paroles d'un croyant, III).

I gather that there are exceptions for clarity, but that seems subjective. In my view, if you're not an editor bound by house rules, you can do what you like. My inclination is to use the serial comma in French just as in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dreacat

I really thought "know-how" would be a good translation of "savoir".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AndrewWend1

You might be thinking of "savoir-faire".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FrenchAddict7

So these words don't need articles?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/puppy7989

In a different question, I had to provide the french from the english - naturally I put the articles. Lost a heart.

The only thing I can think of it that it is like "Égalité, liberté, fraternité" which also usually appears without articles. Also titles of scientific articles and headlines in newspapers often have no articles.

eg from "Les Echos" * «Filiation, origines, parentalité» : le rapport dont la gauche ne veut pas *

I don't know how we are to know for sure when it is OK to omit them - maybe if they are not in a sentence?? But there are quite a few incomplete sentences ….

Hopefully a native speaker can enlighten us.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/antlane

on omet l'article dans certaines énumérations rapides: "Vieillards, hommes, femmes, enfants, tous voulaient me voir."(we omit the article in some quick enumerations: - "Elders, men, women, children, all wanted to see me."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sherm456

Is this a motto somewhere?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/n6zs
  • 2071

Most likely. It sounds like a motto for a government organization in France.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chipro

Hmm, is "savoir" also a noun? Wordreference says that it's only a verb


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HyacinthFT

Like Foucault's "Volonté et savoir". although I don't know why we can't put in plurals since they're pronounced the same.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/borodino

According to Collins Robert Unabridged Dictionary, the last entry for "savoir" is: Noun Masculine -le savoir...learning, knowledge. Still, the Duolingo sentence is not French without the articles.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RowenaJane

I put 'communications' and it was marked wrong ( from the audio it could be singular or plural)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Frank_X

Me, too! hard to tell without the articles.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Anneduol1ngo

I accidentally put 'informations' and was marked wrong, but thought it could be right so looked it up on reverso. To me reverso seems to be saying it could be right. I am not now able to report it, but can anyone confirm my opinion that it is correct to put 'informations'? It was a write what you hear exercise.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nzchicago

The plural form is in the dictionary, but I'm wondering if it would ever be used without the article...and also, you would assume that in that case all three words would be plural, and does that work for all three?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PeaceJoyPancakes

I don't think pluralization works with "savoir", which, to me, pushes the other two towards their uncountable forms as well.

As a matter of speculation I suppose it wouldn't be impossible for the plural countable forms of the other two to be used in this way, despite "savoir", but I'm not sure it's really worth dwelling on here.

This is likely one of those frustrating points where English speakers looking in from the outside tend to find a lack of real satisfaction, but French speakers probably have absolutely no misgivings.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Anneduol1ngo

Thanks nzchicago and PJP


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Whatthelumps

so, if the sentence has no verbs (and therefore isn't really a proper sentence), articles before nouns aren't necessary? cos that would make sense


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AkuaAsare

I had to listen in turtle mode just as many times. I heard se voir que communucation and couldn't put it together. Le sigh. Got it though, finally


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dan554280

does this has some kind of mening together or is it just 3 random words.. like 4, 1 and 7??


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/disc33

These were the ingredients chosen to create the perfect little girl. 

But Professor Utonium accidentally added an extra ingredient to the concoction... Chemical X. 

Thus, the POWERPUFF GIRLS WERE BORN!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/effyleven

You forgot "entertainment" (Broadcasting ideals.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/borodino

It should be "L'information, le savoir et la communication. Le savoir=knowledge. Without the article, it is not a noun according to Collins Robert Dictionary. It has been reported.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BugraBeyaz

what is the difference between information and knowledge?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kkayda

Information is data (hopefully factual) while knowledge is (hopefully) understanding (scientific, emotional etc.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hope197

When would "savoir" mean "knowledge" and when would it be the verb "to know"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YahyaZuhair

when being used as a noun, it means 'knowledge'
and when being used as a verb, it means 'to know'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hope197

Could you please be more specific? Thanks!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PeaceJoyPancakes

You'd know by the context. English has the same sort of thing, e.g.: (1) "to research something" (verb); and (2) "to do research on/into something", "after years of diligent research", "her research has paid off" (noun). There's no real magic to it.

Of course, when it's used as a verb, you'll often see it conjugated. When it's used as a noun, you'll often see it with an article or other determiner. (The example sentence is a bit of an exception, which can occur with lists.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YahyaZuhair

I reckon PeaceJoyPancakes has already answered it really well, but I guess I'll try my own version as well.

The meaning of 'savoir' depends on its grammatical usage in the sentence, whether it is being used as a noun or a verb.

  • it means 'knowledge' when it is being used as a noun.
    and as a noun, it follows the rules of every other noun. i.e must have a determiner and could also have a modifying adjective to describe it.
    it is also only used in one form 'savoir'.

  • it means 'to know' when it is being used as a verb.
    and as a verb, it follows the rules for verbs. i.e if it was the main verb in the sentence, it conjugates differently with each subject and in different tenses.
    it could also be used in negations and questions.
    if it was preceded by another main verb, it presents in a non-conjugated form 'savoir' but then it will be easily distinguishable from any other nouns in the sentence.

Hope this helps.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nzchicago

The "a" in information is pronounced differently (by the male voice) from that of communication. I would love to hear from a native speaker as to why that is. Does the previous "i" in communication affect it?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rocketboy1313

Needs an oxford comma.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Payal375892

Even with the slow turtle i heard that as- information sa voix est communication


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dan554280

What does it mean?!?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nan992093

As of 10/18/17 there is an error in the instructions, which read "Write this in French" when the answer is the English translation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OliverMolb

Is it me or is the audio for "savoir" too fast?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lee63091

how is 'savoir' different from 'connaissance'?

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