"I eat fruit, except for apples."
Translation:Mangio la frutta, tranne le mele.
The example in English itself defines "except" as senza, salvo, and eccetto. Tranno is not even included there.
My Italian reference, "A Reference Grammar of Modern Italian" (Maiden and Robusttelli, 2000, p. 180) lists the following as all meaning "except"
tranne tranne che meno meno che salvo eccetto fuorché al di fuori di
I think all of these can mean "except for" as well as except. Duo should accept them all, probably, even thought it doesn't at this writing. (I'll report it now.)
I love Duolingo, but this is really getting on my nerves. They introduce a random word in one sentence, I get it wrong because I don't know it, then I see it in another and try that word. Wrong again. I used tranne and salvo. Wrong. In another one, I got it wrong because I didn't use salvo. Gah!
Whenever I'm unsure I touch the italtian or english word to display the translations.. would that help you?
I agree. But I do find that the several words they show are in descending order of relevance to the sentence under translation! I also am keeping a master list, typed out. But since it isn't in any particular order (i.e., it is random), it can take a while to find the word I want. I am to the point now of taking that list once every day or two and studying it.
I believe 'fra' and 'tra' are interchangeable, at least from a dated Italian lesson book I have.
What is the difference between 'tranne' and 'oltre'? Could I say "Io mangio frutta, oltre le mele"?
I second this question. I'm a bit confused by the differences in usage between "tranne", "oltre", and "excceto". Could someone elaborate on this for us?
Would "eccetto" (except) be interchangeable with 'tranne' in this translation?
It would, and also "a parte"; the all convey the meaning of an exception to the previous statement.
Why is "le" required here? The original sentence didn't have a definite article in it.
Shancool's comment seems to explain how to disambiguate this sentence, i.e. by including a comma (or not). That's in English, however. I'm still often baffled by the rules for when commas and full stops are used in Italian.
I used eccetto and it was accepted. But does "tranne" mean "except for", which excludes apples, or "besides", which would include them?
In your example, "besides" would also exclude apples. "I eat fruit, besides apples" means "I do eat most fruit, but I don't eat apples".
Not in British English and not in the Macmillan dictionary example: "Did you talk to anyone else besides Joan?" which means "Did you talk to anyone else apart from Joan?", i.e. you talked to Joan and possibly to other people as well.
That example is exclusive too: you're asking if I talked to anyone and then you subtracted Joan from anyone, thus adding an exception to the statement.
I was discussing meaning. The meaning in the Macmillan example is that I know you talked to Joan. If I said "I eat fruit, besides apples." (which I would probably never say) it would mean that I eat other types of fruit IN ADDITION TO apples, not that I don't eat apples, whereas "I eat fruit, except for apples." means that I don't eat apples.
In that case it becomes a matter of punctuation. "I eat fruit besides apples" would mean what you're describing (which could be a response to someone's accusation that you never eat any fruit other than apples), but adding the comma makes it an exception to what you eat--a restrictive clause, not inclusive.
What would using "senza" be incorrect? The english translation choices don't even include "tranne."
Senza means "without". To use senza to give the same meaning you'd say something like "mangio la frutta, senza includere le mele" (I eat fruit, without including apples) which would be technically correct, but it wouldn't be a very natural way of saying it.
The supposed correct translation after my erroneous answer was "..., tranne che le mele" which is different than the one above ("..., tranne le mele."). Could someone explain how 'che' fits in here?
when do you use 'tranne' instead of 'eccetto'? is there a difference/ is one more proper than the other?