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  5. "Mit einer Flasche Wein?"

"Mit einer Flasche Wein?"

Translation:With a bottle of wine?

January 25, 2013

54 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertLunkez

why does it use "einer" instead of "einem" ? Wein is masculine and Flasche is feminine, which one i choose to use the definite article?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sirdog84

The "ein" is linked with bottle. Think of it like this: "with a bottle", NOT "with a wine".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertLunkez

So....I see that "Flasche" is "stronger" than "Wein", so the indefinite article takes the gender from "Flasche" (Die Flasche - Der Flasche - einer Flasche)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/permanenthiatus

Wein is an adjective here. "Wine bottle". The sentence would be the same if wine weren't present.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wataya

That's not correct. "Wein" is a noun. "Eine Flasche Wein" means "a bottle of wine", not "a wine bottle".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Daters
  • 2289

For comparison, how would you say wine bottle?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SethSabers

can we be friends wataya


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/frankenstein724

a "close apposition of two nouns" is -exactly- what a genitive construction is.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wataya

That's not true. Please don't confuse other learners. Also: please give these a read https://www.duolingo.com/guidelines and adjust your discussion style accordingly. Thanks.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/frankenstein724

So, you are right that "wein" is not really and adjective here, it is always a noun, but what you are wrong about (and what permanenthiatus is right about) is how it is being used. While "wein" is still a noun, it is also still -modifying- the noun "flasche". In English, you would say "I drank the whole bottle (of wine)", not "I drank the whole wine", thus, "bottle" is the head noun in what would be called a genitive construct. So most people probably wouldn't choose to translate "mit einer flasche wein" as "with a wine bottle", in all reality there are contexts where "wine bottle" and "bottle of wine" can actually mean the same thing.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wataya

Sorry, but that is not correct. It's not a genitive construct but a close apposition of two nouns. "Eine Flasche Wein" means "a bottle of wine", not "a wine bottle". That translation is just wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/frankenstein724

I'm assuming you posted the guidelines because I called you a fool, I can apologize for that I suppose. But what I said about genitival constructions -is- true. Unless you can cite some source saying otherwise, I'm going to take the fact that I'm a few months from an MA in linguistics, and the fact that wikipedia's pages about linguistics topics are incredibly accurate, to back up my claim.

From wikipedia's entry on "Genitive Construction": "In grammar, a genitive construction or genitival construction is a type of grammatical construction used to express a relation between two nouns such as the possession of one by another (e.g. "John's jacket"), or some other type of connection (e.g. "John's father" or "the father of John"). A genitive construction involves two nouns, the head (or modified noun) and the dependent (or modifier noun). The dependent noun modifies the head by expressing some property of it. For example, in the construction "John's jacket", "jacket" is the head and "John's" is the modifier, expressing a property of the jacket (it is owned by John)."

So whether we are going with "wine bottle" as someone has said, or "bottle of wine" as you are saying, they are both considered "genitival constructs" grammatically, because in both cases a noun, "wine" is modifying another noun, "bottle". Here's where you probably think I'm confusing other users though: the fact that it is a "genitive construction" does not necessarily mean that it uses the "genitive case". Obviously in the sentence here there is a preposition present, "mit" requiring that the following determiner phrase (or noun phrase) be in the dative case, but that does not change the genitive nature of the determiner phrase.

This may be so technical as to not be of interest to any learner, and they can ignore it. But you seem to be accusing me of confusing other learners merely because you perceive me to be spreading misinformation, and I'm telling you that I am not.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamieBarth

I agree. Here, Wine is an Attributive Noun and so is equivalent to an Adjective.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emilmaric

It is "einer" because they are saying "a bottle of wine". Notice how both "Flasche" and "Wein" are capatilized, indicating that they are nouns.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/omri46

Masculine nouns = Dem and Einem Feminine nouns = Den and Einer is that right?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertLunkez

it's not "den", it's "der" for feminine nouns in dative case


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SamiaELSharkawy

Der for neture too?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Minervas37

not in dative case.

masculine:

  • dem Vater
  • einem Vater

feminine:

  • der Mutter
  • einer Mutter

neuter:

  • dem Kind
  • einem Kind

plural:

  • den Eltern
  • meinen Eltern

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danmoller
Mod
  • 157

Very probably the first noun (the one the article refers to) is choosen one. Flasche


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mrcactu5

I noticed this is dative


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/drownedkitten

Yes, "mit" will always trigger the dative case.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DrumFoo

Ein is an indefinite article. Der, die, das are definite articles.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GregHullender

Since I'm a linguist, perhaps I can help resolve some of the confusion over the expression Flasche Wein. I took a few minutes to research it in a German reference grammar.

The short answer (as the moderators have said) is that this is an "appositional" use of Wein. It is not genitive nor is it an adjective. You use it when you want to make a noun phrase modify another noun phrase, which is what makes it feel like an adjective or a genitive. A linguist would say that all three (apposition, adjective, and genitive) serve the same semantic function but with different syntax.

Linguists have a special set of grammatical terms that are intended to let us describe all the languages in the world and compare them to each other. (As one of the moderators said, we'd call this a "partitive.") Each language, however, has its own way of describing itself. When you're learning a language, you want to use the terms customarily used to describe that language--not the universal terms, which are usually more complex.

I see that there are lots of rules for when to use apposition, when to use the genitive, and when to make a compound word. I expect we'll learn those as we go along. For now, I think it suffices to know that when you want to say how much you have of something (e.g. a bottle of wine), you can use apposition to combine two nouns.

Hammer's German Grammar and Usage, 5th Edition (Durrell, 2013, section 2.7, "Genitive, Von, or Apposition?")


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lexagen

What is wrong with the translation "With a wine bottle?" ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SLeason

Because a wine bottle is a different object from a bottle of wine. A bottle of wine is full of wine. A wine bottle is usually an empty bottle.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

That would be an empty bottle.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shieldgenerator7

I don't understand this construct. What are the rules for things like "Flasche Wein" where you have two nouns right next to each other?

ie: If I want to say "cup of tea" do I say "Tasse Tee"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/christian

This is a close apposition or, more precisely, a partitive apposition.

If I want to say "cup of tea" do I say "Tasse Tee"?

Exactly.

http://goo.gl/2yJbhf


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/katheryn.g1

"With a wine bottle?" isn't correct?!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/WAVE98

"mit" makes this sentence dative I'm pretty sure.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shofa.mumi

So it's a bottle of wine, not a flask of wine?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wataya

It depends on what kind of flask you're talking about. Those balloony wine flasks are called "Flaschen" as well (or "Ballonflaschen" if you want to be more specific). The flasks you use in chemistry are called "Kolben" and the little flasks you carry with you are "Fläschchen" (little bottles) or "Feldflaschen" (field bottles). If they are flat, they are sometimes called "Flachmann" (literally "flat man").


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/derrickoswald

The tooltip for the word "einer" mistakenly says "a (masculine/neuter nominative)", I think it should say "a (feminine dative)".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Guend1

what is the relation bet. Fasche and Wein? is it genitive!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/christian

This has already been explained. Please always read the previous comments.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JackCampbell1839

Why can't it be a flask of wine?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tim952328

You wouldn't put wine in a flask - at least not here in Britain! You would put tea or coffee in a 'Thermos' (or similar) flask to keep it warm. You would put whisky (whiskey to our American cousins) in a hip flask.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JOSE407058

Please tel me why EINER is used in this sentence. I try to read all answers but many deviate from the subject.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rearaniva

I don't really understand why this is dative :(


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bibstha

Any noun after mit takes dativ.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/omri46

I know this is a dum question but can some one please exlain what is a "Dative"? thanks :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertoMon365886

The bottle is not made of wine. This shall describe the use fo the bottle. Hence, A wine bottle.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Esha..1

Why not mit eine Flasche des Wein


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Minervas37

corrected it would be "mit einer Flasche des Weins" or "mit einer Flasche des Weines"

this genitive construction is not used here because it would require that the wine is a specific one which was mentioned before.

e.g.: You visit a friend who is a winegrower and has been raving about a certain wine for years. If you then get "eine Flasche dieses speziellen Weines" as a gift, you can show off "mit einer Flasche des Weins" at home.

oh and it is "mit einer Flasche" and not "mit eine Flasche". It is dative because of the "mit" here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlisonNeve2

Both wine bottle or bottle of wine are correct English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Naveedsarwar

The einer here seems a genitve article rather than dative, any comments on this ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/christian

Not sure why Wataya's comment is being downvoted. He's absolutely right.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/drockalgzemoser

Dative follows this pattern: M, einem; F, einer; N, einem; P, einen. Genetive would follow this: M, eines; F, einer; N, eines; P, einer.

Feminine is the same for both Dative and Genitive, hence wataya's comment; here it is being used in the dative. Not a german scholar by any means, but I think it would be very awkward forming a genitive noun directly after a preposition like "mit".

Comments always appreciated :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/frankenstein724

you are right that "mit" requires the dative case, but for the record, though the "genitive case" is not used here, the two nouns acting together like that is what we would call a genitive construction.

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