51 Comments
why does it use "einer" instead of "einem" ? Wein is masculine and Flasche is feminine, which one i choose to use the definite article?
The "ein" is linked with bottle. Think of it like this: "with a bottle", NOT "with a wine".
So....I see that "Flasche" is "stronger" than "Wein", so the indefinite article takes the gender from "Flasche" (Die Flasche - Der Flasche - einer Flasche)
Wein is an adjective here. "Wine bottle". The sentence would be the same if wine weren't present.
That's not correct. "Wein" is a noun. "Eine Flasche Wein" means "a bottle of wine", not "a wine bottle".
a "close apposition of two nouns" is -exactly- what a genitive construction is.
That's not true. Please don't confuse other learners. Also: please give these a read https://www.duolingo.com/guidelines and adjust your discussion style accordingly. Thanks.
So, you are right that "wein" is not really and adjective here, it is always a noun, but what you are wrong about (and what permanenthiatus is right about) is how it is being used. While "wein" is still a noun, it is also still -modifying- the noun "flasche". In English, you would say "I drank the whole bottle (of wine)", not "I drank the whole wine", thus, "bottle" is the head noun in what would be called a genitive construct. So most people probably wouldn't choose to translate "mit einer flasche wein" as "with a wine bottle", in all reality there are contexts where "wine bottle" and "bottle of wine" can actually mean the same thing.
Sorry, but that is not correct. It's not a genitive construct but a close apposition of two nouns. "Eine Flasche Wein" means "a bottle of wine", not "a wine bottle". That translation is just wrong.
I'm assuming you posted the guidelines because I called you a fool, I can apologize for that I suppose. But what I said about genitival constructions -is- true. Unless you can cite some source saying otherwise, I'm going to take the fact that I'm a few months from an MA in linguistics, and the fact that wikipedia's pages about linguistics topics are incredibly accurate, to back up my claim.
From wikipedia's entry on "Genitive Construction": "In grammar, a genitive construction or genitival construction is a type of grammatical construction used to express a relation between two nouns such as the possession of one by another (e.g. "John's jacket"), or some other type of connection (e.g. "John's father" or "the father of John"). A genitive construction involves two nouns, the head (or modified noun) and the dependent (or modifier noun). The dependent noun modifies the head by expressing some property of it. For example, in the construction "John's jacket", "jacket" is the head and "John's" is the modifier, expressing a property of the jacket (it is owned by John)."
So whether we are going with "wine bottle" as someone has said, or "bottle of wine" as you are saying, they are both considered "genitival constructs" grammatically, because in both cases a noun, "wine" is modifying another noun, "bottle". Here's where you probably think I'm confusing other users though: the fact that it is a "genitive construction" does not necessarily mean that it uses the "genitive case". Obviously in the sentence here there is a preposition present, "mit" requiring that the following determiner phrase (or noun phrase) be in the dative case, but that does not change the genitive nature of the determiner phrase.
This may be so technical as to not be of interest to any learner, and they can ignore it. But you seem to be accusing me of confusing other learners merely because you perceive me to be spreading misinformation, and I'm telling you that I am not.
I agree. Here, Wine is an Attributive Noun and so is equivalent to an Adjective.
It is "einer" because they are saying "a bottle of wine". Notice how both "Flasche" and "Wein" are capatilized, indicating that they are nouns.
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not in dative case.
masculine:
- dem Vater
- einem Vater
feminine:
- der Mutter
- einer Mutter
neuter:
- dem Kind
- einem Kind
plural:
- den Eltern
- meinen Eltern
Very probably the first noun (the one the article refers to) is choosen one. Flasche
Since I'm a linguist, perhaps I can help resolve some of the confusion over the expression Flasche Wein. I took a few minutes to research it in a German reference grammar.
The short answer (as the moderators have said) is that this is an "appositional" use of Wein. It is not genitive nor is it an adjective. You use it when you want to make a noun phrase modify another noun phrase, which is what makes it feel like an adjective or a genitive. A linguist would say that all three (apposition, adjective, and genitive) serve the same semantic function but with different syntax.
Linguists have a special set of grammatical terms that are intended to let us describe all the languages in the world and compare them to each other. (As one of the moderators said, we'd call this a "partitive.") Each language, however, has its own way of describing itself. When you're learning a language, you want to use the terms customarily used to describe that language--not the universal terms, which are usually more complex.
I see that there are lots of rules for when to use apposition, when to use the genitive, and when to make a compound word. I expect we'll learn those as we go along. For now, I think it suffices to know that when you want to say how much you have of something (e.g. a bottle of wine), you can use apposition to combine two nouns.
Hammer's German Grammar and Usage, 5th Edition (Durrell, 2013, section 2.7, "Genitive, Von, or Apposition?")
I don't understand this construct. What are the rules for things like "Flasche Wein" where you have two nouns right next to each other?
ie: If I want to say "cup of tea" do I say "Tasse Tee"?
This is a close apposition or, more precisely, a partitive apposition.
If I want to say "cup of tea" do I say "Tasse Tee"?
Exactly.
It depends on what kind of flask you're talking about. Those balloony wine flasks are called "Flaschen" as well (or "Ballonflaschen" if you want to be more specific). The flasks you use in chemistry are called "Kolben" and the little flasks you carry with you are "Fläschchen" (little bottles) or "Feldflaschen" (field bottles). If they are flat, they are sometimes called "Flachmann" (literally "flat man").
The tooltip for the word "einer" mistakenly says "a (masculine/neuter nominative)", I think it should say "a (feminine dative)".
This has already been explained. Please always read the previous comments.
I know this is a dum question but can some one please exlain what is a "Dative"? thanks :)
The bottle is not made of wine. This shall describe the use fo the bottle. Hence, A wine bottle.
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corrected it would be "mit einer Flasche des Weins" or "mit einer Flasche des Weines"
this genitive construction is not used here because it would require that the wine is a specific one which was mentioned before.
e.g.: You visit a friend who is a winegrower and has been raving about a certain wine for years. If you then get "eine Flasche dieses speziellen Weines" as a gift, you can show off "mit einer Flasche des Weins" at home.
oh and it is "mit einer Flasche" and not "mit eine Flasche". It is dative because of the "mit" here.
The einer here seems a genitve article rather than dative, any comments on this ?
Not sure why Wataya's comment is being downvoted. He's absolutely right.
Dative follows this pattern: M, einem; F, einer; N, einem; P, einen. Genetive would follow this: M, eines; F, einer; N, eines; P, einer.
Feminine is the same for both Dative and Genitive, hence wataya's comment; here it is being used in the dative. Not a german scholar by any means, but I think it would be very awkward forming a genitive noun directly after a preposition like "mit".
Comments always appreciated :)
you are right that "mit" requires the dative case, but for the record, though the "genitive case" is not used here, the two nouns acting together like that is what we would call a genitive construction.
