Great lead into what I wanted to talk about. I am getting this after several attempts at the reflexive verbs. I checked my dictionary to see if quedarse is a reflexive verb. Yes it was and one definition was "to stay or remain in place". What I learned from this exercise is if you have a conjugated verb and 'se' you may need to check the meaning since reflexive verbs can have different meanings to the non-reflexive verb. Use the infinitive plus 'se' to verify. This is a big step for me and I hope it will save you time and hearts.
I still don't understand why the reflexive pronoun se is necessary, unless you omit él. It seems to me that, if él se itself cannot be omitted and quedó en el hotel cannot stand alone, if either or is used, the other should be omitted. Am I wrong? What am I not understanding?
Both "él quedó..." and "se quedó...", and even "él se quedó...", seem redundant to me.
Wouldn't it be much easier and just as effective to say "Quedó en el hotel"?
The verb spanish speakers use to mean "to stay" is quedarse. We can conjugate the verb to indicate the tense therefore in this case se quedó. We can't drop the 'se' because spanish speakers won't understand. Se is not replacing El but rather it is necessary to describe the action = stayed. Who stayed =He stayed, he being the subject. Se quedo = action.
Isn't the verb merely 'quedar'? What's the difference, if any, between quedar and quedarse?
From what I've read it seems that se can be either tacked on to the ends of verbs in order to demonstrate that the verb is reflexive or placed before the verb to represent a reflexive pronoun (as opposed to modifying the verb)...
I've been looking at a conjugation chart (http://www.spanishdict.com/conjugate/quedar) and apparently Quedó means S/he, you stayed, so I'm still lost as to why the reflexive pronoun is necessary in this case?
EDIT: Okay, you say that Se represents the subject in the phrase "Se quedó," but I guess what I'm trying to ask is why can't Se be omitted like how Yo is omitted when you say something like "Creo que..."? Why is Se required to make such a statement?
EDIT2: Does it have something to do with the verb, quedar, being used intransitively?
quadarse is a nonreflexiv verb in ENGLISH, and means to stay/ remain. The Spaniards have this same "to stay" as a reflexiv verb, "to stay himself". Quedar without the se means be left, be left over or have left, él quedó en el hotel= he was left over in the hotel
And SE is the OBJECT
That is literally what it means, so what is your point? That native speakers of Spanish and native speakers of English choose to frame their thoughts differently? Learning a language is not just about memorizing vocabulary, it's also about learning idiomatic phrasing.
When I first started learning Spanish, I found it helpful to say to myself "In Spanish 'Se queda aquí' is 'He himself remains here,' which is 'He remains here' in English." With every sentence that used different phrases, word orders, and vocabulary, I did this until I could remember the translation without having to stop and recall the differences.
The goal is to hear it in colloquial Spanish and instantly understand it in colloquial English. The only way to do this is with thousands of hours of practice. We may not always think of it this way, but this length of time is not only required, but is also identical to the way that toddlers learn to speak.
Actually, Linda, I think you're wrong. Our thoughts only exist within the framework of language. Beyond that it's just raw needs and instinct. Of course our thoughts are affected by the language we speak. All the tools we have for thought and analysis and even identifying feelings were taught to us within the framework of our own language. That's exactly why it's hard to learn a new one (and hardest to learn your first foreign language).
Perhaps I should have used the word "idea" instead of the word "thought." As the poet Robert Browning wrote, "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?" If I were snarky and philosophical, I'd argue that perhaps the product of raw needs and instinct is a "thought," an experiential reality, that is so universal, expansive and inclusive that comparing it to a mere framework of language is like trying to condense the universe into a pea-sized object.
Some things are unknowable, like the kind of thought that can multitask; be all things to all people or one thing to all people. However, somewhen there must exist a thought identical in two languages, despite the fact that the vocabulary and syntax of said respective languages share no common characteristics. The thought I'm thinking of is "I'm hungry/Tengo hambre." But what do I know? ;^)
You're splitting hairs, Lynettecmw, but for practical purposes I agree that human thought is to some extent shaped by language, and is getting more so as we evolve.
Good way of looking at it. However if you leave out the "se" it actually does make sense in Spanish and in English it becomes something like "he remained at the hotel" or "was left at the hotel". This is because "quedar" can mean several things in English, not just "to keep".
That pretty much applies to most of the issue. Of course se is only the third person pronoun. If the subject is in the second or first person, then appropriate direct object pronoun should be used. Two issues should be noted. The first is that in some cases the difference between the regular and the reflexive verb seems to be more than just being both the subject and the object the same. Verbs like ir and irse seem just to be slightly different. A list of some of those verbs is contained in this link.
The second issue is a big one mostly because Duo doesn't cover it at all as far as I have seen. If you have a sentence with le as an indirect object pronoun and la or lo as the direct object pronoun, the le becomes se and it does not make it a reflexive pronoun. Yo le tiro la pelota a Juan becomes Yo se la tiro a Juan NOT Yo le la tiro. The same is true when they are added to the appropriate verb form (Puedo tirarsela I can throw it to him or Déselo! Give it to him!). In these cases se is not reflexive.
Lynettecmw, the issue is how to translate a Spanish sentence with a transitive verb plus an indirect object into an English sentence with an intransitive verb minus an indirect object. In kirakrakra's example above, he points out 1) that "se" is the object of the Spanish transitive verb "quedar" and 2) that "to remain/stay" (quedarse) is an intransitive English verb.
Spanish and English have the same work-around when a predicate is intransitive: the use of a prepositional phrase in the part of the sentence where prepositional phrases are 1) optionally added for emphasis in Spanish, and 2) necessarily added in English in order to relate a noun, noun substitute, or pronoun to a verb adverbially.** Not only does using a prepositional phrase adverbially solve the problem of how to translate a Spanish transitive verb + an indirect pronoun into an English translation, but using a prepositional phrase also provides a way for Spanish to use reflexive pronouns in order to translate a Spanish sentence into English Continuous (Progressive) Tense.
For example, because of the "se" in the sentence "Él se queda en casa" (He stays at home/He is staying home), the Spanish verb "quedar" can be translated as English Present Progressive Tense. Another example is "Se vienen al partido con nosotros." The translation "They are coming to the game with us" has the direct object "game" in both English and the Spanish translation. Similarly, both have the object pronoun "us/nosotros."
In other words, when an English translation uses an intransitive English verb, different prepositions can be used in adverbial prepositional phrases in order to translate a Spanish indirect object as part of an adverbial prepositional phrase that relates said pronoun to the predicate verb in the same manner.
NOTE: In English grammar, a preposition can be defined as "a word that 1) can relate one noun to another adjectivally and 2) can relate a noun to a verb adverbially. That is, a prepositional phrase relates its object to either a verb or a noun.Thus, in the sentence "I throw the ball TO JUAN" (Se la tiro la pelota TO JUAN), the prepositional phrase "to John"/a Juan" limits where the ball can be thrown, thereby meeting the definition of an adverb because specifying "where" is one of the things that adverbs do. A similar example is the sentence "La pelota se queda con Juan"/"The ball remains with John."
The difference between quedar and quedarse is essentially volition. Quedar is used mostly for objects and is translated as is left or remains. But when you are talking about a person you are talking about a choice that he is making about himself (his body) When remaining is a choice or a senscient act it is quedarse. It is true that you really have to look up reflexive verbs because the way they affect the meaning of the root verb is unpredictable, especially from an English language perspective. Just look at ir vs irse for the easiest example.
Quedar is a verb with many meanings.
Remain, left. Quedan cuatro libros en el escritorio. Four books remain on the desk.
Be located. Mi casa queda cerca del colegio. The hotel is close to the school.
Plan to meet. Quedé contigo a las seis. I arranged to meet with you at six o'clock.
And, like in the exercise, STAY, be in a place , no left. Quédate en mi casa. Stay in my house.
With this last meaning you have to use the reflexive. If not, it can be confused with arrange to meet.
Me quedo en casa. I stay at home. Quedo en casa. I meet at home (with friends).
Él se quedó en el hotel. He stayed in the hotel. El quedó en el hotel. He meet in the hotel.
Quedar - 'to be left', 'to remain' Generally we have a subject, verb, and an object. John (the subject) eats (the verb) an apple (the object). Juan come una manzana. With Quedar, we need a subject and an object; John (the subject) left (the verb) ...what did John leave behind? Himself. As John is the subject and object, we have a reflexive verb, and so we use the reflexive pronoun for 'himself' - 'se'. Juan se quedó (reflexive pronouns, like indirect and direct object pronouns come before the verb). Not sure if I am correct or not, feel free to comment.
But you could also say Juan se come una manzana and would mean the same as juan come una manzana. I asked my argentinian friend and he said that he would use the former rather than the latter. The use of se in that particular sentence is unclear to me.
But your explanation here of leaving himself as the object was a good one.. :)
I, too, have encountered native speakers that add reflexive pronouns to verbs that I didn't think were reflexive. This seems to be a regional variation, and like a lot of regional variations, what is acceptable in one area is not always acceptable in another. So try to stay in the realm of good grammar, and what you say will be accepted anywhere (of course, when it comes to vocabulary, you sometimes just have to pick one). In general, "Juan se come una manzana" would not be accepted by a Spanish speaker. That would be an example of a regional variation. Reflexive verbs that you see here on Duo will be generally accepted in the Spanish-speaking world.
i hope this is right..but i think the reason for 'se' is because this particular verb form comes from the reflexive verb 'quedarse' not 'quedar' therefore it needs the reflexive pronoun. they have similar meanings - quedar is to stay, remain, be left (indicating location) and quedarse is slightly different and means to stay (behind), or remain (behind). i guess because reflexive pronouns must be used with that particular verb, that's why it will be understood and not so if you miss it out.
Okay, so let's try these examples. "Me quedé en casa" means "I stayed at home". That's a reflexive verb, quedarse, meaning "to stay". The "me" is a necessary part of the meaning of the verb. "Sólo quedaron dos bananas" means "Only two bananas remained". That's a non-reflexive verb, quedar, meaning "to remain, to be left". There are other meanings of "quedar", also, found here: http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=quedar Does that make more sense?
It's been eleven months since I posted that, and I think I've finally understood the idea of "quedar" and "quedarse". My gratitude to all who have posted answers and explanations, and who are still posting, and have been helping other students including me. Thank you, espanola_amanda, for making the effort and taking the time to help me with my question. People like you on this forum are the reason learners like me find it a little less difficult learning this beautiful language. I love Duolingo and I love the community. :) Please, have three lingots on me as my appreciation of your reply, and as I'm sure other students will find your post and the link you provided helpful.
Se as a reflexive pronoun (as it is in this example), simply indicates that the direct object of the verb is the subject. To better see this, think of the English translation of this Spanish sentence as "He kept himself in the hotel." He is both the keeper and the kept.
It translates to: himself, to himself, herself, to herself, itself, to itself, themselves, to themselves, yourself, to yourself, yourselves, to yourselves, oneself, to oneself, each other, or to each other. All those English words/phrases represent reflection, the subject of a verb also being the direct object of it—in other words, something acting on itself.
Myself, yourself, himself, ourselves, yourselves, themselves....those are English reflexive pronouns. They may behave a bit differently in Spanish than English. In French, they can indicate a passive voice when used with etre for instance. The differences between English Refliexive verbs and Spanish reflexive verbs: . http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/106797/pronominal-verbsreflexive-pronounsI realize this was 3 years ago you wrote but google says that other language reflexive verbs are more situational, more than grammatical or something.
I have a really dumb question. Is quedarse a conjugation of quedar? The way I hear everyone talk about both words it sounds like, use quedarse INSTEAD of quedar or vice versa, depending, and this has me totally confused. I can see they are different words but are they the same word, conjugated to become a "se" verb? Help! Thank You!
I see you're level 21 as of this writing, so I'm sure you figured it out by now, but for others benefit I will answer this question.
It isn't a conjugation, but rather a signal that it's being used in the reflexive meaning of quedar. Quedarse is still an infinitive, and could be used where you would use an infinitive in a sentence, provided the subject was in the third person.
Example: Ellos van a quedarse. They are going to stay.
If you want to use it as a the main verb of the sentence, you need to strip the se off the end of the verb and put it in front of it. Then conjugate the verb to the subject.
Example: Ellos se quedan They stay.
Of course you're not limited to quedarse...
Voy a quedarme I'm going to stay.
Hopefully that helps someone.
Not that I can give an all understood answer, but the difference is between the use of a verb and a reflexive verb. For reflexive verbs/infinitives, the person does it to himself, like for afeitarse, me afeito means that I shave myself, and would be used to describe my shaving in the morning, which I usually do. Afeitar non-reflexive, I'm shaving something else. For quedar/quedarse, I think the reflexive verb is more likely used when talking about people and non-reflexive when talking about things. There are still uses of the reflexive that I don't have down pat, so maybe someone else can add more.
I am not quite sure as to what doesn't make sense to you. Stay and remain are synonyms. In English, it is true, if you said that someone stayed at a hotel without other context it would be assumed that they were sleeping there, but the same would not necessarily be true of remain. But this difference is only one of common English usage. If a group of tourists, for example, we're checked in to a hotel and some went out on an excursion, there would be no difference between saying that the others stayed at the hotel and the others remained at the hotel. Conventional usage sometimes clouds our perspective on meaning. That is actually the reason why I recommend to always first translate quedar and quedarse as remain. The difference on the English translations can be really confusing. Él se quedó en hotel - he STAYED at the hotel, but No queda leche- There's no milk LEFT. That looks confusing, but if you translate both with remain, you will understand that they are essentially the same thing. In this case it is the conventional English usage that is strange, but it can equally be something strange in Spanish or any other language.
No, because in your translations the Spanish object himself becomes the subject. He, himself in subject form is Él, el mismo not se
Subject question: Who stayed? Ans: he, él
Object question: What did he stay? Ans: himself, se
To get everything in place, you can make a word by word translation: " he stayed himself at the hotel", where "himself" is the object as it should be and then give "he stayed at. the hotel" to Duo since nobody uses stay reflexively in English
Actually that little strangeness is actually something to plague learners of English more than Spanish. Quedar means to remain. No queda leche. There is no milk remaining. Our English word remaining is in this sentence a synonym of left. There is no milk left. Quedarse is the reflexive verb for when a person remains at a location. Se queda (se quedo) en el hotel. He remains (remained) at the hotel. This remain is synonymous with stay. He stays (stayed) at the hotel. So in this case the "left" is not the opposite of stay at all. It is a totally different meaning of left. As I said, it is the English here that is strange.
JoMoai left you a great link which shows the meanings of permanecer. If you look up quedarse on that same site you will find that there are many more meanings of quedarse, including one synonmous to morir. But in terms of this sentence permanecer would work perfectly. Using a Spanish to Spanish dictionary as you begin to be able to understand the definitions given is helpful. Instead of just giving you a list of which English words might be translations under different circumstances, it gives some context to various meanings.
This sentence is in the preterite. Here are the congugations
Yo me quedé en el hotel Tú te quedaste en el hotel Nosotros nos quedamos en el hotel Ellos se quedaron en el hotel
As with other congugations, the subject pronoun can be omited and is very likely to be. The third person, either singular or plural, is the only one that is ever likely to be ambiguous and in context may well not be. Reflexive verbs just "reflect" the action of the verb back on the subject so the subject pronoun (if a pronoun is used) is in the same person as the direct object pronoun. But they use the same direct object pronoun and have the same rules for placement so you might also have constructions like
Puedo quedarme in el hotel
or the command Quedate in el hotel!
Here. The subjects (actors) are classified according to Spanish.
1:st person singular: I stayed = (yo) me quedé
2:nd person singular: you stayed = (tú) te quedaste
3:d person singular: he, she or You stayed = (él, ella, Usted) se quedó
1:st person plural: we stayed = (nosotros, nosotras) nos quedamos
2:nd person plural: you stayed = (vosotros, vosotras) os quedasteis
3:d person plural: they or You stayed = (ellos, ellas, Ustedes) se quedaron
http://www.123teachme.com/spanish_verb_conjugation/quedarse From this one you can ask for any verb you want and get it conjugated in every mode and tense and translated to English for the first person singular. I have asked for quedarse. If you ask for quedar you will see almost the same thing: quedarse without the reflexions: me, te, se, nos, vos, se The translation is the same to stay but note the note for quedarse:
Quedarse can also mean to stay in the sense of stay at a hotel. Quedarse normally means to stay or stay/remain behind intentionally; in contrast, the nonreflexive form quedar typically means to stay in the sense of to be left.
P.s. I see that lynettemcw already answered you in a short and accurate way. I leave this because it has some more information
in my opinion they shouldn't start using these dificult matters while learning the past itself is very difficult. these are examples of words that should be learned by heart rather than trying to understand how they work. unfortunatelly this happens a lot in learning new languages. native speakers just know, students just have to try to learn by heart. my native language is dutch and -trust me- in dutch there is a lot of words native speakers just know.
Ok, let's go through the possibilities in English. 1) Sometimes Joe stays at our house and sometimes at the hotel (the only one in town). This time, he stayed (overnight) at the hotel. 2) When we all left the hotel to go to dinner, he stayed (was left behind) at the hotel. 3) He was going to go out, but when he heard it was raining, he stayed (did not leave) at the hotel. 4) After everyone else was gone, he was the only person remaining at the hotel. Let's eliminate (1) and (4) as too obscure. My understanding is that in Spanish (2) would be "Quedó en el hotel." To make it clear you are talking about a person and not a purse, you would clarify with "El' quedó en el hotel." For (3) he is the only one involved, so we use quedarse instead of quedar. Probably doesn't matter though. Only (4) would clearly use quedar instead of quedarse, right?
Getting a handle on the reflexive in Spanish can be a daunting task. There are some that, although not used in English, are easy to learn. Me llavo las manos. I wash myself the hands is not what we say, but has a logic that is easy to learn. Here the sense is sort of like He kept himself at the the hotel. In other words the remaining was an action he did to himself. Less obvious, but this has some logic. But there are also some verbs where the reflexive form has an unusual change in meaning,like Ir and irse. If you see a se that does not make sense to you, there are a couple of steps to figure it out.
Is the sentence in passive voice? The se passive is the most common Spanish passive voice. With it the Spanish speaker is essentially saying that the verb performs itself. Aquí se habla español. This literally means Spanish speaks itself here, but the correct translation is Spanish is spoken here. It is the same with se puede hacer and other se passive voice sentences.
Are there more than one object pronouns present? The indirect object pronoun le changes to se when it proceeds the direct object pronouns lo or la. Él le tiró la pelota a ella Él le tiró la pelota Él se la tiró. But I haven't seen two object pronoun exercises on Duo.
- If that doesn't help, look up the root verb on Spanishdict.com. If you scroll down towards the bottom, you will find definitions and examples of any reflexive and pronomial versions.
It is the difference between the verbs quedar and quedarse. We use different words to translate them into English, although English doesn't use reflexive verbs the way Spanish does. Quedar has a couple of specialized uses like clothing fitting or suiting, but quedar most commonly is translated as is left or sometimes remains. No queda leche. There is no milk left. The passive voice construction shows awareness that some unnamed agent did not leave any milk. You use it in active voice as well. Él dejó a su esposa. He left his wife.
But quedarse is translated as stay. Me quedo en casa. I stay at home. But according to the Spanish point of view you are saying I leave myself home. It is an intentional choice I make about my body.
I am still a newbie but it seems to me quedar and quedarse have two different meanings so you need both in different situations quedar is more like something just temporary like someone is held up somewhere or staying somewhere but that isn't their permanent resident or final place to live, like a hotel or you're expecting someone but they are held up somewhere without them or you knowing if their final decision will be to still come, quedarse seem to mean more like the person decided to keep himself where he is, he or she made a permanent decision to stay in the hotel or to stay behind in that place and not come with you or go see you... Quedarse is the stronger more stringent decision.
Mostly context. And that is actually the same answer in many different expressions going both ways. The bottom line is that some things can be definitively expressed better in one language than another. We tend to notice the distinctions you can't make in Spanish before the other way around. For example, a teacher cannot ask a child to have something signed by "a parent" since that word doesn't exist in the singular in Spanish. But there are also many examples the other way as well. And here the ambiguity can also exist in English. If you were attending a function at a hotel where you were not staying, you might say that someone stayed at the hotel when you went to pick someone up without meaning he checked in. And in Spanish, if it were important to stress that he was inside the hotel or the room you could say dentro del hotel or dentro de su habitación,but that would not be the common thing.
Apologies for the length. The issue is how to translate a Spanish sentence with a transitive verb plus an indirect object into an English sentence with an intransitive verb minus an indirect object. First, some background information:
In English grammar, a preposition can be defined as "a word that 1) can relate one noun to another adjectivally and 2) can relate a noun to a verb adverbially. That is, a prepositional phrase relates its object to either a verb or a noun. Thus, in the sentence "I throw the ball TO JUAN" (Se la tiro la pelota TO JUAN), the prepositional phrase "to John"/a Juan" limits where the ball can be thrown, thereby meeting the definition of an adverb because specifying "where" is one of the things that adverbs do. "¿La pelota se queda con Juan?"/"The ball remains with John?" is a similar example. Again, a prepositional phrase is adverbial because it tells "where*."
As the above example shows, both Spanish and English have the same work-around when a predicate is intransitive: the use of a prepositional phrase in the part of the sentence where prepositional phrases are 1) optionally added for emphasis in Spanish, and 2) necessarily added in English in order to relate a pronoun/noun adverbially to a verb. Accordingly, if you want to translate a Spanish transitive verb + an indirect pronoun into a sentence with an English intransitive verb, the only way to do so is to use an English intransitive verb (remain/stay) + a prepositional phrase with an English object pronoun. Using a prepositional phrase also provides a way to translate Spanish transitive verbs into intransitive verbs in English Continuous (Progressive) Tense and at the same time retain a Spanish indirect object meaning in the English translation.
Actually that is essentially what the se passive voice says. I would have answered this question differently, but I just saw a couple of videos where she discusses six uses of se. Now to me, three of those seem like essentially the same thing. But however you look at it, I think these may help you. There are two parts of the same lesson, but the Youtube names aren't clear. But I think they are in the right order.