Duolingo is the most popular way to learn languages in the world. Best of all, it's 100% free!

https://www.duolingo.com/Jonathan--

Nice Slate Article, But Conclusion Questionable

Jonathan--
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Duo gets more well-deserved attention in this article: http://slate.me/1fi2QZ0 . I don't agree with everything in the following assertion from Luis, however:

"According to von Ahn, reaching the current endpoint of the app means you will have achieved roughly the B2 level (“upper intermediate user”) in the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages. 'You won’t sound native,' he says, 'and when you’re talking you’ll do a lot of simplifications. You’ll probably mess up the subjunctive form. But you’ll get around. You’ll understand what you hear very well. You’ll be able to read books and watch movies in the language.'”

Having finished the Spanish tree, I may be at a B2 level in reading, but -- even with a lot of extra-Duo practice listening to Spanish radio and TV -- I doubt that I am a secure B2 in listening, much less speaking. Without extra-Duo listening practice, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't even be B1 in listening or conversing.

This is not to suggest that Duo isn't an incredible resource for language learning. Nonetheless, if my experience is representative, there seems to be a partial disconnect between what the founders believe is happening vs. what is actually happening.

4 years ago

62 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/wazzie
wazzie
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For reference, here are what the A2, B1, and B2 levels consist of:

A2:

  • Can understand sentences and frequently used expressions related to areas of most immediate relevance (e.g. very basic personal and family information, shopping, local geography, employment).
  • Can communicate in simple and routine tasks requiring a simple and direct exchange of information on familiar and routine matters.
  • Can describe in simple terms aspects of his/her background, immediate environment and matters in areas of immediate need.

B1:

  • Can understand the main points of clear standard input on familiar matters regularly encountered in work, school, leisure, etc.
  • Can deal with most situations likely to arise while travelling in an area where the language is spoken.
  • Can produce simple connected text on topics that are familiar or of personal interest.
  • Can describe experiences and events, dreams, hopes and ambitions and briefly give reasons and explanations for opinions and plans

B2:

  • Can understand the main ideas of complex text on both concrete and abstract topics, including technical discussions in his/her field of specialisation.
  • Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party.
  • Can produce clear, detailed text on a wide range of subjects and explain a viewpoint on a topical issue giving the advantages and disadvantages of various options.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages

edit: added info for A2

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kassandra8286
kassandra8286
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Here are a couple of links to test your CEFR level:

I haven't tried the second link, but I've taken the test at the first link a couple of times. It's hard! I barely passed the B1 level with a little above 70%. The questions consist largely of conversational Spanish, with phrases, idioms, and vocabulary you won't learn from Duolingo alone.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alipaulam
Alipaulam
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I just tried the Spanish test and was really depressed how much basic stuff even at A1 level - eg prepositions, how to answer the phone - I haven't come across yet on Duo despite being halfway down the tree.

There's no doubt in my mind that, while Duo's overall approach is highly motivating and addictive, the content could be radically improved, with much more of the everyday stuff you normally get in classes (my name is x, I come from London, I am English, i'd like a kilo of tomatoes, please' in place of 'the duck has a large elephant' and the like. I am understanding the written Spanish ok (I know Italian) but I wouldn't have a cat in hell's chance of buying food in a shop except with sign language! Beef, pork, lamb, beans, some nice fresh spinach, anyone? I'd be living on pollo y arroz.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Arthurva
Arthurva
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I agree that the vocab should be vastly increased - nonetheless, I went to South America shortly after having completed the Spanish tree, and was able to get my way through quite well and had no problems communicating everything I needed to, for three weeks in Bolivia, where generally very few people speak English. While I did use Rocket Spanish for a while (which extended my vocab) and had two 2-hour one-on-one lessons (which was an all-round help to come to terms with some problems I could not work out otherwise), as well as attending a Spanish Meet-up group once a week (to practice listening and answering/speaking), I think I was able to make myself understood in almost every instance. That would be close to B1 in my judgement. While I used some other additional resources (movies, part of Destinos, News in slow Spanish etc to get my head around other speakers and generally improving understanding what I heard, I think if I had done immersion more, I would have had some (if not all) of the same benefits. What I can say without a doubt is that, from the moment I started Duolingo, my progress increased drastically! I think, with all its shortcomings (and every medium that I have used has its shortcomings), Duolingo has an amazing effect on the learning process - at least that is my experience. No single course seems to cater for all the needs, but Duolingo is a pretty good overall help.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alipaulam
Alipaulam
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I agree. It's Duo's approach that motivated me to try Spanish in the first place (I came here originally to brush up my Italian and French) and I'm pleased to have advanced from 0 to A1 so far without any pain or slog, just fun. But just think how much better it could be!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JoyceMann
JoyceMann
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I just took the test as well. About answering the phone? I am used to the Mexican "bueno". I guessed at the answer on the test.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Soglio
Soglio
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I hit B2 on the languagelevel.com, thus casting its reliability into grave doubt.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wazzie
wazzie
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I would have to agree. I got distracted half-way though, and just answered randomly to end the test so I could start over when I had less distractions, and I got an A2.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kassandra8286
kassandra8286
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EDIT - Yeah, that languagelevel.com test is a little questionable. It has one 15-question test, after which it tells you your level. The first time I was A1, the second time (with different questions) B1. I guessed at quite a few. The spanish-test.net is more comprehensive, with a series of 30-question tests for each level. You pass A1, you go on to A2, etc.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Duo2012
Duo2012
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It's definitely too generous. I got C2 on the French whereas I'm more like a rusty B1.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/heivoll
heivoll
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I got B2 in in German as well, and I think I'm realistically somewhere between A1 and A2, as I've been learning German for about a month now...

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RobCrownsSuck

Me to, I got B2 .. unfortunately the other test site mentioned isn't marking my A1 answers, so no go

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Arthurva
Arthurva
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Thanks for these links, Kassandra8286!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JoyceMann
JoyceMann
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And CEFR stands for??

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kassandra8286
kassandra8286
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Common European Framework of References for Languages. (Wazzie posted the Wikipedia link above, but this thread has grown a lot, so here it is again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JoyceMann
JoyceMann
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Thank you...took the test yesterday.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JoyceMann
JoyceMann
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Thanks. just took this test. My Spanish is at A2. I got 63% at B1. A fun exercise.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/qaa2
qaa2
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Great links - have a lingot!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Hohenems
Hohenems
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Seriously? I completed the German tree and am doing it a second time now. I'm not even close to B2.
Barely a B1, if that.

Edit: After reading the description at wiki, I'm a solid A2.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wazzie
wazzie
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That's pretty much where I feel I am too. I have a personal goal of reaching B2 by the end of the year, but I'm going to start really focusing on other resources. (books, television, movies, speaking with (semi) native speakers, writing (lang-8), and whatever else I can find!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wataya
wataya
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@wazzie: if you want to go to B2, lang-8 is great for the writing part. For speaking you'll probably need a traditional in-person class. The framework puts great emphasis on conversational skills, something Duo doesn't train at all. You can savely regard Luis' B2 claims as pure marketing talk.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BobbieL
BobbieL
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To be fair to him, he said here that the GOAL is to get Duolingo to a state where you can reach B2 skills. He believes the interviewer misunderstood and thought he meant that's the goal for what someone should be able to achieve NOW.

They're supposedly working on some kind of chat bot, so they ARE thinking about how to give people a little practice in a more conversational style.

People reaching B2 now would obviously be a pretty delusional claim, and I'm not currently learning much of anything due to how unpleasant it is to work through lessons right now, but they ARE working on making it possible to reach that level.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Zach1337

Yes, but to be fair once again, wataya posted that BEFORE Luis clarified what he meant and said that the article misquoted him. Before the clarification, it just sounded like marketing speak to me as well.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wataya
wataya
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@Zach: thanks. It still sounds like that to me. Saying "our goal with this product is B2 for everyone (But we'll need to develop a fundamentally different product to get there)" and leaving out the part in parantheses is pretty much the definition of marketing speak to me.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/judderwocky

i've been using the chrome language immersion app and i feel that is pretty nifty

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/pleiadian_

Is there any way to legitimately test for this outside of Europe, namely in the States?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/annika_a
annika_a
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I guess at least the French DELF/DALF-tests should be available in America through Alliance francaise, as well as various Goethe-Zertifikat's for German through the Goethe-Institute. For Spanish, I don't know what the equivalent would be (yet :-) ). The Cervantes Institute probably has something similar going? (For English, there is at least the Cambridge Certificates and the TOEFL test.)

The thing is, as far as I know there is no one "official" test for these levels in Europe either: the CEFR is simply a framework that language courses and tests are fitted into, in order to make them comparable. If the institution organizing the test is well know and considered to be reliable, the test should be legitimate. With short online questionnaires or independent language schools with no external assessment, rather less so.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/pleiadian_

Thank you annika :)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/annika_a
annika_a
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De nada, dario :-)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alipaulam
Alipaulam
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The French tests are official, run by some central authority. The Italian tests are (why am I not surprised) a basket case, with several universities offering rival qualifications, with varying requirements, although all claiming some equivalence with the CEFR framework, with varying degrees of acceptability to other organisations (universities, etc). I don't know about German or Spanish. I think in England the gold standard is Cambridge, so it's not unlike the Italian system except that one university has come out on top.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/annika_a
annika_a
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I think most UK universities accept both Cambridge and TOEFL test results of a certain score as proof of sufficient English language skills for studying in English. At least this used to be the case.

In Germany, there is (or at least was) a test called Deutsche Sprachprüfung für den Hochschulzugang ausländischer Studienbewerber (abbreviated, understandably, as DSH), which many universities used for the same purpose. It had both a written and an oral component. (I was recently pleasantly surprised to find out that I must have had C2-worthy skills in German a long time ago, since I once passed this test with flying colours!)

I just found this link, which might be very useful for readers of this thread: http://www.mastersportal.eu/articles/345/all-you-need-to-know-about-language-certificates.html (at least if nomen est omen).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/biscuitbarrel

I work in the education field and can help out a bit here if people are learning English with the goal of going to university in either the UK or America.

Apart from the TOEFL and the Cambridge English Language Cert, many UK universities also accept the IELTS as proof of sufficient English proficiency. The Cambridge English cert is not to be confused with the Cambridge GCE A-Level English exam which is taken by A-Level candidates together with a slew of other subjects in order to determine their candidacy for uni.

For America the accepted qualifications are generally the same as in the UK, however many colleges also accept a decent SAT I writing/reading score (approx 700 out of a maximum mark of 800) in lieu of TOEFL/IELTS scores. This is the case at the undergraduate level for non-native speakers, however do note that the SAT I in reading scans more like an English literature exam with textual analysis than a run-of-the-mill English fluency test. In any case, if one is aiming for undergraduate college in America, SAT I and II test scores are recommended, if not mandatory, at most colleges.

However, at the post-graduate level (i.e. Masters or PhD), many American universities demand good marks on the GRE (Graduate Record Examinations), which is a test comprising of questions in Mathematics and written English. The difficulty of the English component on the GRE far surpasses that of any other test I've ever seen - it's way beyond the top tier on the CEFR, way beyond the test taken at the "native" level of the Cambridge English examinations. The vocabulary required is, frankly speaking, ridiculous, and I would recommend a few months' dedicated studying (or "cramming") of vocab words before the exam is attempted.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/David_Mis

Powerful streak there dario_gerussi. Keep it up!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JoyceMann
JoyceMann
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Thanks for the definition. As a citizen of the USA I was not aware of the European method.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/qaa2
qaa2
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Wazzie, Thanks for the detail of the levels! Have a lingot!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Jack.Elliot
Jack.Elliot
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thank you for posting that article ... I will read it with interest... thank you for your taking on the levels that we can achieve .. I quite agree with you ... it is the fun of the game that helps to develop our brains better than vegeting in from of the telly....... big thanks ... and a Lingot for you as a token of gratefulness ,,, all the best from a cold wintry Scotland

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alipaulam
Alipaulam
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It is true that at the end of the app/tree you will have covered all the grammar you need at B2. But there is no way that an active vocabulary of 1800 words will get you there, let alone a passive vocabulary.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/eggplantbren

That's extremely optimistic. Having finished the Spanish tree I'd put myself at A2. To be B2 I think you'd need to be very confident with absolutely all of the material presented here and have about twice the vocabulary.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/curlyeric
curlyeric
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Agreed that finishing the tree is a solid A2, B1 is achievable with appropriate supplemental material. Duo is best for reading and I have used it as a springboard to absorbe as much target material as possible. Duo would need some serious redesigns in order to improve the listening, speaking, writing, and cultural aspects of achieving B level on the CEFR.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alipaulam
Alipaulam
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I actually think that in some ways finishing the tree is equal to much more than A2, in that you've been introduced to pretty much all the verb tenses and moods, if not in much depth. You've got the whole tree, and the big branches, but no twigs or leaves. You only get about the present, future, imperfect and perfect max for A2 - halfway up (or down) the trunk of the tree. But, as I've already said, you get more practical stuff, and more vocabulary.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RobCrownsSuck

Not judging by the courses for A2 I have looked at, they cover conditional, conditional perfect, imperfect, future and subjunctive. I completed those lessons AFTER finishing the DuoLingo tree and was getting plenty of new information. In DuoLingo the truth is, I am too good at guessing and mirroring back, earlier part of the lesson, so can get by with a good score on stuff without really learning it.

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/qaa2
qaa2
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I like your imagery!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Jonathan--
Jonathan--
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You are very welcome, and thanks for the Lingot!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tariqnisarahmed

I probably fall short of Luis's expectations, too. :) But I think my listening and speaking skills will stay weak until I listen to and speak in French regularly. Duolingo has not forced me to use those skills enough for the rust to give way there, but I have not forced myself, either.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Katherle
Katherle
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I've posted this link before, but I'll post it again here to give you an idea of what level B2 means - this is a video showing the oral exam of the Cambridge First Certificate in English (= level B2):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tR-P6pne2w

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wataya
wataya
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Thanks. I think that puts these B2 claims in perspective.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bill-Roca

I agree that Duo is a great resource, but my experience after finishing the Spanish tree (starting from ground zero) and then visiting Spain is similar to yours.

I can read Spanish pretty well and I can speak basic phrases well enough to be understood, but there is absolutely no way I can "... understand what you hear very well". That's overly optimistic, at least for me.

I'll be reworking the Spanish tree as soon as I finish my French tree (I have trips planned to Spain in May and France in July) and the second time around I'll try to do outside work to better understand spoken Spanish. But I'm definitely not there yet.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CecilieO.

I think reversing your tree would be much more valuable for you than simply doing the same lessons over again.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/christian
christian
Mod
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A2 seems a lot more realistic to me. B2 is flat out impossible.

Here's a B2 mock exam for German: http://www.goethe.de/lrn/prj/pba/bes/gb2/mat/enindex.htm

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wataya
wataya
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These exaggerated claims are getting ridiculous. I agree, B2 with Duo alone is simply impossible.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/chilvence
chilvence
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It might be because I take everything with a grain of salt, but whatever level Duo claims to be able to get you to interests me very little. Obviously it is their goal to get you as far as they can, and sometimes they have to make an estimate of what that is to share for the sake of publicity, but this is something impossible and even counter productive to measure - you don't walk forward while staring at your belly button, after all.

When you have reached a level you are comfortable with, you simply know, you don't need acknowledgement. What I think is far more important, is how much experience Duo gives you for literally nothing, and for that reason it is an institution that has earned my unwavering respect. Every single other language teaching enterprise deals in coins; if you don't pay upfront, then screw you -- whereas Duo is gutsy enough to trade in peoples time and effort , something that has never actually been recognised as a valuable commodity, at least where language is concerned.

Previously, language students had to pay their way, now you can decide to study a language with the same amount of abandon as you might decide to look at cat videos or play Tetris. I don't think anyone is going to realise what a bombshell this is until 10 or 20 years from now, because Duo isn't changing how fast anyone can learn a language, that is ridiculous, it is changing who is able to.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Arthurva
Arthurva
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Some words of wisdom - and a reality check - thanks.

Nonetheless, someone may want to measure their progress objectively, for any of several reasons - so I don't knock them for it. What I have gained is the ability to make myself understood in Spanish - a new language for me.

No test would have any value above the experience that when I spent three weeks in Bolivia recently and could both understand and make myself understood, is all I need to know its worth.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/bharatingermany
bharatingermany
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Christian? What about B1?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luis
LuisPlus
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I apologize :( This is probably the result of a miscommunication -- similarly, an article once quoted me saying we had 1.2 billion users (more than Facebook!).

Our current goal is to get you to B2, and we're working very hard towards that. We try not to say which level you can get to after you finish the tree because the tree keeps evolving and individual results may vary. That said, we do a lot of internal measurements (some of you may have gotten emails from us to take standardized tests). According to those measurements, depending on the language you're learning and how much practice you do, you can currently get to either B1 or A2.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Jonathan--
Jonathan--
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Thanks for the clarification, Luis. Here's hoping that as things are added to the site, we'll all get to B2!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/curlyeric
curlyeric
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I'll be a naysayer here. Two things jump out at me, first and foremost I don't think that you can get to B2 through automated interaction alone. Secondly I don't see how you can get to the difficulty of B2 without compromising the ease of the chunks right now. According to most studies on the matter B2 takes between 2.5 and 3 times the practice to achieve, so this is a lofty goal.

Here are a few other low hanging fruit.

  • Only a single voice. I took months before I could follow a deep voiced men in French.
  • The computer voice can't handle heteronyms. In the English for French the voice could not deal with the fact that "live" is pronounced different based on it's meaning.
  • The speaking exercises have value, but do not do a good job grading or steering students towards correct pronunciation.
  • The treatment of tenses in French is completely inadequate to reach B2. It might be possible to read, but there is no guidance on even when the simple tenses are required let alone the tricky subjunctive which is very foreign to English speakers.

As someone who is working through the B1 level at this point, I would love to be proven wrong.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/qaa2
qaa2
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I disagree with you - the tests for A2, B1, B2 etc are all based on reading and writing skills - and those are covered here. These test do not included listening, speaking and discussion - so while the points you make are valid in general, they wont help or hinder you from getting B2, in principle.

What you fail to mention, which is very relevant is VOCABULARY! With only 1571 words (in Spanish and probably similar in other languages) you are never going to get anywhere, including B2!!

However, I agree with you that no single course can do everything (and give you two lingots for that) - at least I have not come across one yet! So other resources are definitely required. Eg:

  • VOCABULARY: Other language courses, books, articles, magazines, online resources including word lists, flash cards, games, as well as the activities below. Essential is a good dictionary (online or book).

  • LISTENING SKILLS: Movies, Cartoons, On-line games, news, soapies, TV (on-line or direct), audio books etc

  • SPEAKING /CONVERSING: There are skype programs, hangouts, etc; going to a club for your language is useful, a buddie who is native to the langauge, a fellow learner, langauge groups like Meetup groups which meet in many cities of the world etc

  • GRAMMAR: to get reasonable proficiency in a language you need to know the basic grammar. There are grammar books, online resources etc.

BUT!!! What Duolingo is very good at is catching you in the game of learning a language; You play and learn ... you are conned into practice, practice, practice - and so without noticing one absorbs masses! I have not done so much drill in years, and still found it enjoyable, addictive even! There is no other resource I know of that does this so well.

That is my 5 cents worth!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/christian
christian
Mod
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Those online tests are not the real deal. The results are meaningless because they can only measure competence, not performance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_competence#Competence_versus_performance). These are the components of an official B2 exam:

"Written examination held in groups (190 minutes)

  • You will read a number of different texts from modern media, such as advertisements, catalogue entries, reference book texts, commentaries, reviews and reports and do various exercises on them.

  • You will fill in the missing words in a written text.

  • You will listen to discussions and telephone conversations, then you add to what you have heard and categorize statements. In addition, you will also listen to an interview on a current social topic and do exercises on it.

  • You will comment in writing on a newspaper article and correct a letter.

Oral examination held individually or in twos (15 or 10 minutes)

  • You will introduce yourself to your conversation partners (including native speakers), take a position on a current topic and enter into oral negotiations with a fellow examination candidate."

http://www.goethe.de/lrn/prj/pba/bes/gb2/bes/enindex.htm

If you only ever used Duolingo in its current form, you will fail this exam. To change this, Duolingo needs to add fundamentally different types of exercises. Taking inspiration from Lang-8 and Verbling would be a good start.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/qaa2
qaa2
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OK, Thanks Christian! (Here are two lingots for the clarification!) I did not know that - I stand corrected on that score, Curlyeric. Doing wider study using other tools, though is essential - that is only more so now taking into account the actual test above.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/curlyeric
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My key goal with achieving B2 is "Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party." This is the big one for me, I can already read at a pretty advanced level, I push myself to write ( especially pros and cons ), and listen to/watch TV and movies daily.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/J-Steven

Luis, I read somewhere that one of your goals is to make it as simple and cheaply as possible for people around the world to get the actual B1 or B2 certificate using a person's own webcam to confirm their identity, and I think that would add immense value to duolingo. Meanwhile as a transition to reaching that level of capability, have you considered reaching out to international testing centers such as Prometric and brokering a deal with CEFR so that a user could take a B1 test there? Maybe in the future once duolingo is much more expanded, when a user is 3/4 through the tree, you will get a note saying "Congratulations, you are now ready to take the B1 test!" That would be AMAZING

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Arthurva
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Many thanks, Luis - That explanation is very useful. I guess it implies that: 1) this is a future aim - which sounds logical as the tree is continually expanding, and other tools are being developed to address current shortcomings (eg speaking and understanding spoken speech); 2) Not everyone is going to meet the goal - not now, and not in the future! Factors here are among others: the way we learn; our natural ability with languages; our memory capacity; our background and previous experience in learning; how far our target language is from the language(s) we already know etc. 3) How well we use all the tools -including regularity of practice; how much immersion we have done etc - this latter point has a huge effect on our effective vocabulary! 4) Finally, whether we have already had previous exposure to the language, or are presently in close communication with the use of the language! All said, I think it is as always - your effectiveness is only a result of what we put into it. Luis - when all is said and done, this is a brilliant course that can allow ANY person to get to the level he or she wants! Many thanks for that!!

4 years ago