https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kangourex

Shall VS Will && Can VS May && Own VS Have VS Get

Salut,

Quelqu'un pourrait se donner la peine de m'expliquer leurs différences.

SHALL VS WILL (English version lower)

Semblerait-il que Shall ait une notion d'imposer son avis.

Mais quand je vois cette phrase : "You shall not kill." (Tu ne tueras point.) Je ne vois pas où est la notion d'imposer son avis dans le fait de tuer personne ^^

Pourquoi ne pourrais-je pas dire "You will not kill" qui en l’occurrence se traduit littéralement de la même façon ?

De plus je n'ai jamais vu de réponse avec le modal Shall :

"Will you win?" "I will"

"Shall you win?" "I shall" ??

Les points de vue divaguent tellement à ce sujet.

Dans la 1ère ressource : http://www.anglaisfacile.com/exercices/exercice-anglais-2/exercice-anglais-96373.php

Shall est utilisé qu'avec I et We.

Or dans la 2ième ressource : http://cle.ens-lyon.fr/workbook/shall-et-will-le-fortement-probable-147226.kjsp?RH=CDL_MAN060000

Il y a des phrases en You.

Et dans cette dernière ressource : http://www.anglaisfacile.com/exercices/exercice-anglais-1/exercice-anglais-110.php

C'est précisé que Shall n'est utilisé que dans les demandes de conseil/suggestion, un peu comme Could non ?


CAN VS MAY

A quoi sert le modal May ?

Dans cette ressource : http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/can-or-may

Il est bien précisé que Can demande la capacité de le faire ; et May dans des situations formelles ??

De plus il y a une phrase très connue "May the force be with you" pourquoi le traduit-on en "Que" ? Pour la même remarque que plus haut je pourrais utiliser Could pour une demande plus polie plutôt que May ?


OWN VS HAVE VS GET

Littéralement parlant :

Own = Posséder (dans le sens avoir, pas surnaturel)

Have = Avoir

Get = Obtenir et Avoir

Si je veux dire "Avez-vous un chien ?" puis-je dire :

1) "Do you own a dog?"

2) "Do you have a dog?"

3) "Have you got a dog?"

4) "Do you get a dog?"

En réponse "Oui j'ai un chien"

5) "Yes I own a dog"

6) "Yes I have a dog" "Yes I've a dog"

7) "Yes I have got a dog" "Yes I've got a dog"

8) "Yes I get a dog"

En question "As-tu eu la médaille ?"

9) "Did you own the medal?"

10) "Did you have the medal?"

11) "Had you got the medal?"

12) "Did you get the medal?"


SHALL VS WILL

It would seems that Shall have a notion to impose its opinion

But when(ever ?) I see this sentence : "You shall not kill." (Tu ne tueras point.) I do not find where is the notion to impose its opinion in the fact to kill anyone. ^^

Why could i not say "You will not kill" that as it happens translate itself litteraly in the same way ?

Plus, i have never seen of answer with the modal Shall :

"Will you win?" "I will"

"Shall you win?" "I shall" ??

The points of view are so different about this subject.

In the 1st ressource : http://www.anglaisfacile.com/exercices/exercice-anglais-2/exercice-anglais-96373.php

Shall is used only with I and We.

However in the 2nd ressource : http://cle.ens-lyon.fr/workbook/shall-et-will-le-fortement-probable-147226.kjsp?RH=CDL_MAN060000

There is sentences with You.

And the last ressource : http://www.anglaisfacile.com/exercices/exercice-anglais-1/exercice-anglais-110.php

It is explained that Shall is used only in the demands of advice/suggestion, like Could no ?


Fin du message

Merci d'avoir lu, et merci des réponses que vous apporterez.

June 6, 2016

22 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/garpike

'You shall' 'they shall' indicates a demand on the part of the speaker of the addressee. 'Thou shalt not kill' is an injunction against killing, not a statement of simple future. 'You will not kill, because I have your gun', 'you shall not kill, because I forbid it'. 'I shall' and 'we shall', however, are simple future; to express volition in the first person, use 'will'.
The famous example is of two men drowning in a river; one cries 'I shall drown and no-one will save me!', and the second 'I will drown and no-one shall save me!' The first wants to be rescued but despairs that he never will be; the second is determined to kill himself.

As almagne says, Americans tend to ignore these distinctions. They are largely the preserve of educated speakers of British English.

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kangourex

Thanks ! I really liked your story ^^ It is so funny

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alicia.mudziviri

yeah it was funny

June 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dazlbug

I'll make a start on "can" vs. "may".

In a question, usage varies by age, and probably by country and region. I am middle-aged and was brought up in the American South. I was taught to use "may I" when asking for permission but "can I" when asking for information. For example:

"May I jump on the sofa?" means "Do you permit me to jump on the sofa?"

but

"Can I jump on the sofa?" means "Am I physically able to jump on the sofa?" (I guess that's a question I would ask myself rather than someone else.)

"Can" is sometimes used in a question that is also a request. For example:

"Can you go to the store for me?"

and

"Could you go to the store for me?"

both connote something like "Are you able and willing to go to the store for me? If so, please do." "Could" sounds a little more polite (and tentative) to me, but tone of voice is probably more important than word choice. "May" doesn't work in this question.

Finally, "May the Force be with you" is essentially a blessing (and "May your toenails fall out" is a curse). This usage is intentionally a bit archaic. You wouldn't use any other word in place of "may".

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kangourex

Oh thanks, I am going to translate this text, did you understand whole the text ?

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dazlbug

Sorry, what text?

June 7, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kangourex

"Shall VS Will && Can VS May && Own VS Have VS Get" ^^

June 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dazlbug

Yes, I think I understood your whole post, but I replied only to part of it--and I see that other people have replied to other parts.

June 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/almagne

For "Shall":

In American English today, shall is not normally used. There are a few exceptions:

1- In legal documents - to show an obligation.

2- To be polite. "Shall I take your coat?" "Shall we dance?" Today Americans would say "Can I take your coat?" "Would you like to dance?"

3- In old translations like the Bible, that are still used today.

For the commandment, "You shall not kill." This is a translation from the Latin. In the past "will" was used to translate the Latin word "volo," and "shall" was used to translate other constructions. In addition "shall" was used in the imperative case (but it is not normally used this way today). In the Bible the commandment in Latin is "Non occides." As a result the commandment was translated by "shall."

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/corvusalbus

1) "Do you own a dog?" A bit more formal than the others.

2) "Do you have a dog?"

3) "Have you got a dog?"

4) "Did you get a dog?" "Will you get a dog?" or "Are you getting a dog?"

En réponse "Oui j'ai un chien"

5) "Yes I own a dog"

6) "Yes I have a dog" "-Do you have a pet? - Yes I've a dog". More emphasis on dog.

7) "Yes I have got a dog" if you are stressing the word "have" otherwise, "Yes I've got a dog" which sounds the most natural of them all.

8) "Yes I'll get a dog" future tense. "Yes I'm getting a dog" more definite, you've already picked out the puppy.

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kangourex

4) Why "Did" my sentence is not in the past :/

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/corvusalbus

You wouldn't really use "get" in the present tense like that. "Do you get it?" can be used as in "Do you understand it?", but for your example "Are you getting a dog?" "Yes I'm getting a dog" would be preferable.

June 7, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LanguageButcher

"Shall" is much stronger than "will." "Shall not" is will not, would not, and must not - all roll into one.

Well, you can ask "Shall you kill?" No, I shall not.
Shall I kill? No, you shall not.

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kangourex

Thanks, it's like the May from future so ? ^^

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LanguageButcher

Shall is an order, must stronger than may.

You may kill = I give you permissions to kill. It's ok to kill.
You shall kill = I order you to kill. Do not disobey me.

June 7, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kangourex

I wanted to say It's the same than Must sorry :x

June 7, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LanguageButcher

It's not quite the same either.
The lion must kill = no, he does not. If you feed him meat everyday, he won't. The lion shall kill, it's in his nature = don't let your kid fall into the lion's den. He will kill the kid.

June 7, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ecohansen

For "eu le medaille", we would most commonly say "I won a gold medal" or "I've won a gold medal." "I have a gold medal" would also be acceptable. "I'll get the gold" is a common set phrase meaning "I'll win the gold medal", but we'd be less likely to say "I'll win the gold" or "I'll get the gold medal". "I own a gold medal" would mean that I probably bought the medal on e-bay: it sounds strange, and doesn't put any emphasis on accomplishment. For number 11, you wrote "Had you got the medal"? This sentence is incorrect. "Have got" is a set phrase that is a more casual version of"have", so "Have you got a medal" would be a correct sentence meaning a more informal "Do you have a medal". If the "had" means you were using the plus-que-parfait (pluperfect), remember that the past participle of "get" is "gotten", so the sentence would be "Had you gotten a medal (before I saw you)?"

Pour "eu le medail", on plus souvent dit : "I won a medal" ou "I've won a medal". "I have a gold medal" and "I've got a gold medal" sont OK aussi. "I'll get the gold" a le sens de "I'll win the gold medal", mais on n'entend que rarement "I'll get the gold medal" ou "I'll win the gold". "I own a gold medal" a le sens de "J'ai acheté un medaille d'or sur e-bay": "own" n'importe aucune sens d'accomplissement. À 11, vous avez écrit: "Had you got a medal?" Ce n'est pas correcte. Souvenez que "have got" est une phrase fixée aui a le sens d'un "have" plus casuel. Donc, on pourrait dire "Have you got a medal?". Mais si le "had" signifie le plus-que-parfait (pluperfect), en ce cas il faut utiliser le participe passé: gotten. "Had you gotten a medal before I saw you?"

In the "Avez-vous un chien ?" section, 1, 2, and 3 are all acceptable. 1 is the most formal, and 3 is the most informal. For 4, "to get" is an action verb, while "own" and "have" are stative verbs. Remember that for action verbs the simple present usually implies habitual actions. So: "I get a new dog every five years" or "I am getting a new dog now." The way it is written now, it seems to be following a colloquial usage of "to get": "I get it" means "je le comprends"; "I get you" means "je vous comprends"; so "I get a dog" means "je comprends un chien".

Apres le question "avez-vous un chien", les réponses 1,2,et 3 sont tous OK. 1 est le plus formel [la plus formelle? Je sais que les nombres sount tous masculins, mais quand ils signifie des choix le sont ils toujours?], et 3 est le plus informel. À 4, "to get" est un verbe actif, bien que "to own" et "to have" sont des verbes statifs. Souvenez que dans le cas des verbes actifs, le présent simple a le sens d'un action habituel. Donc, "I get a new dog every five years" ou "I'm getting a new dog now." Au moment, "I get a dog" semble avoir le sens d'un autre utilisation du verbe "to get": "I get it" est un moyen casuel de dire "Je le comprends." Donc, "I get a dog" semble dire "Je comprends un chien".

In the "oui j'ai un chien" section, 5, 7, and the first half of 6 are acceptable. We only make contractions from modal or "helping" verbs: In sentence 6, "have" is the only verb in the sentence, so we can't turn it into a contraction. We can say "I have a dog" but "I've a dog" sounds archaic and Shakespearian.

Apres "oui j'ai un chien," 5, 7, et le premier parti de 6 sont OK. Regardant des verbes, on ne peut transformer en contraction que des verbes modals ("helping verbs"). À #7, "have" est modal, et donc "I've got" est OK, même préféré. Mais à #6, "to have" est le seul verbe du sentence, et donc on ne peut pas le transformer en contraction sans semble archaïque et Shakespearian.

----Whew! I'm sure I made me a boatload of errors in those there french paragraphs: any corrections would be greatly appreciated. --Je suis sur que j'ai commis beaucoups d'erreurs dans les paragraphes en Francais--tous vos rectifications seraient appréciés.

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/garpike

I just wish to point out that 'I've a dog' sounds perfectly normal to British ears, and 'had you got a dog?' is correct in British English (where the past participle of 'got' is 'got'); 'have you gotten a dog' sounds archaic to us...

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ecohansen

Gah! Never let me make a sweeping statement again!

June 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kangourex

Thanks for your explanation here is a correction of your message :)

>Ce n'est pas correcte

Ce n'est pas correct OR Elle n'est pas correcte

> mais on n'entend que rarement

mais on l'entend rarement

>le question

la question

>les réponses 1,2,et 3 sont tous OK

toutes

>1 est le plus formel

La (question / réponse ) 1 est la plus formelle

> Souvenez que

Rappelez-vous que

> a le sens d'un action habituel

qu'une action habituelle

> d'un autre utilisation

d'une autre

> et le premier parti

et la première moitié OR et la première partie

> du sentence

de la phrase

> sans semble archaïque et Shakespearian

sans paraître ... et shakespearien

> Je suis sur

Je suis sûr

> tous vos rectifications seraient appréciés.

Toutes vos rectifications seront appréciées

June 7, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ecohansen

oof. Thanks.

June 7, 2016
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