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  5. "אתה ואני."

"אתה ואני."

Translation:You and I .

June 21, 2016

109 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/heraklesyang

Is the pronunciation supposed to be " 'ata ve-'ani " ? Why does it sound like " 'ata va-'ani " ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DvirMoran

Native speaker here - in (very) formal speech the '-ו' "and" can have multiple pronunciations, such as "va" or "u" in addition to "ve", but in modern speech only "ve" is used, except in maybe songs or some idioms. I don't even know the rules for when (formally) each pronunciation should be used (though maybe other native speakers do, idk).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hrafnunga

In Sephardic representations of Biblical Hebrew (my only area of Hebrew knowledge thus far), it's ve (sheva sound) before most consonants, with the following exceptions:

Before vet, mem or fe, or before any consonant with a sheva under it, it is usually long "u" (shuruk)

Before a consonant with chataf patach (short a, dialectically either as in bat or father) it's usually va (with patach)

Before chataf segol (short e as in bed) it's usually ve (as in veterinarian)

Before chataf kamats (o as in row in Sephardic Hebrew but dialectically more of an a) it's usually va (with kamats) with a as in father.

Before yod it's sometimes vi (with hiriq, pronounced like the English name of the letter V).

Since modern Hebrew rarely uses the niqqud (vowel points) outside of scripture anyway, it's easy to see why the every-day pronunciation has simplified for certain things like this.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tu.8zPhLySD9eGoy

Perhaps the omission of the vowel points is a sort of advance? I mean, those points were ADDED later (to the Biblical Hebrew), right?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Pcoco_priest

In biblical prayer(I'm Jewish I know this stuff) you say Va before pronouns and in listing things you say vi,vi,oo___ and you would say oo only for the last thing


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hrafnunga

Which vocalization is that based on? Because it's contrary to everything I was taught about Sephardic Hebrew.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Pcoco_priest

I was taught ashkenazi prayed


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hrafnunga

Interesting, תודה


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eshalev

The formal "THE ACADEMY OF THE HEBREW LANGUAGE" (here: https://hebrew-academy.org.il/) list the following rules for nikud of vav hachibur (the vav of addition):

Shva, pronounced as u for words starting with the letters בומ"ף. Examples: וגבעות (u-gvaot translates to "and hills"), ובנות (u-banot translates to "and girls").

In words where the next latter is chataf, the vav will get the same nikud as the chataf. For example, in the word ואני (va-ani) the א has the nikud chataf patach, which leads to the vav getting a patach. In the word ואמת the א has chataf segol, which leads to the vav getting a segol.

A vav preceeding a word which has a yud with shva at the begiing such as ילדים (yeladim, kids) and יהודים (yehudim, jews) will get a chirik and pronounced as vi.

In some common constant attachment of words the vav will get a kamatz and be pronounced as va. Examples, כפתור ופרח "Kaftor va-perach" which translate to a butten and a flower and is an expression. A second example would be בשר ודם "basar va-dam" which translate to flash and blood.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/heraklesyang

Thank you very much! תודה!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HARMONYSTA3

thanks! I couldn't understand how to say. I like how you used phonetics! It would be nice if they used them:)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ANeto9

Why the word ve-ani sounds like v but writted without Vet but begining with I?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

Because ו (vav) can also be pronounced as "v".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AzIgaziZsoozsy

Because the vowel of the letter ו changes because of the vowel of the first letter of the word it is attached.

In today's modern Hebrew most of the speakers, even if Hebrew is their mother tongue, they don't have a clue about linguistics built of the language of the Bible (that's what I studied for first and second grade), that's why they pronounce it like they don't know what vowel should be under the consonant letters, because they never write it, that's why they pronounce it like "veata" which is actually wrong, but as noone knows, noone corrects each other.

Duolingo try to teach the correct pronunciation, even if most of the Israelis they don't know it and pronounce it wrong and might even correct you wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CJ.Dennis

Possibly because in quick speech, "ve-ani" would end up as "ve-yani", while "va-ani" becomes "va(!)-ani". I'm using "(!)" as a glottal stop. It's the same sound found in the middle of "uh(!)-oh!".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

(Another native Hebrewer here) Bold explanation! But I think not. Just about all Hebrew speakers would say "ve-ani", and it will never sound "ve-yani". And whether we say "ve-ani" or "va-ani", none of us would pronounce a glottal stop there.

The question stands, why the speaker for Duolingo pronounced "va". In fact it sounded completely natural to me, and if I had to record it for something like Duolingo I'd also instinctively say "va", although in everyday talk I always say "ve", even if I'd speak to an auidence.

As Dvir Moran said above, the "academy" rule dictates "va" (before the א with the "a" vowel). But this is an exotic rule that I don't know well, and most Hebrew speakers know even less. So it doesn't explain my and the Duo's speaker tendency.

My theory is... we learnt it from songs! Here's one: https://youtu.be/d3TFI_2G52M?t=32 This great hit from 1975 represented Israel in an international contest; I'd expect some authorities made sure the singer pronounced everything "properly".

Here's another one: a charming medium hit from 1987: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FtMqNVH5oc (right at the beginning: "Guy, ata va-ani ve-duy" The composer of that one, the legendary Naomi Shemer, was a member of the Academy of the Hebrew Language, and surely made sure the singer would pronounce everything "properly".

And lastly: https://youtu.be/qoGurrdtz6Q?t=77 https://youtu.be/l-tRKBTJVE0?t=67 Two great hits from the same 1991 album. By then there would have been no authorities to correct the singer Gidi Gov, but he's already been an oldie who was educated to sing "right", and possibly internalized the "right" pronunciation from older songs.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

Sorry for spamming, but I have to - my wife reminded me of the most prominent song example, the often-considered-most-beautiful Hebrew song of all times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcayUsa9yvw, listen to it all but notice 1:35, and then at 2:45, tripled!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/phuvtuo

This song must be an acquired taste.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HARMONYSTA3

lol. the first song from 1975 sounded like the Beatles era :). Definitely , I wish I knew what u were talking about, I'm a beginer , I wouldn't know the difference between biblical and modern day Hebrew. Although that's why I'm here!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/amazingcaio

i don't really get it. if "veaní" sounds the most natural, why would you pronounce "va-aní" for duolingo? does "va-aní" sound formal or posh?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eshalev

Most of the time ו comes before a word creates a 've' sound. On the other hand, formally this could be 've', 'va' or 'u' sound depending on the work it is attached to.

In spoken language, the distinction vanishes with some native speakers who pronounce everything as 've' (which is wrong). This is why it sounds natural to native Hebrew speakers. You may follow my response above to see how it should sound in the correct rules.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RamonAndre265865

Ok i agree with you.


[deactivated user]

    I was just about to suggest it, but you were 12 hours earlier than me :) A beautiful song by Arik Einstein.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ouranikos

    Why do the women in the video call each other אתה?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hrafnunga

    Because those are the words to the song. It is strange, though.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Cuteseal2

    If the quick translation thing says אתה is "you are", why is this not "You are and I am?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniKelly69

    because Hebrew doesn't have/use the verb "to be" in the present tense. In English אתה is translated "you", "you are", or "are you"


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gerardd88

    Ahhh, another language that doesn't like to be. I've just finished Russian and haven't really got over Turkish yet and now this. Why you do this Hebrew?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Pcoco_priest

    Haha I've been learning Hebrew all my life and the worst part is separating words into masculine and feminine. Hebrew has all the to be verbs except in present tense. Why? Because Hebrew is like "here's a long list of rules you must learn.....here's a list of exceptions to each and every rule"


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Cuteseal2

    Perfect, thanks for the explanation!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LobsangC

    So, then, how do we know which one is called for in any given situation which I believe is more in line with what 'Cuteseal2' was asking about.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Pcoco_priest

    I think האם אתה is like are you/did you


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hrafnunga

    No, האם in this sense just starts a yes or no question and isn't actually translated (except in that it changes the word order and adds a question mark). אתה by itself means "are you"/"did you" in this case.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hatch_and_

    If the word order the other way around, this would be Martin Buber's great book "אני ואתה" (Ich und Du / I and Thou). :)


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ID-007
    • 1900

    Does the word 'and' exist as a separate word in modern Hebrew? Thank you.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ran6996

    No, it doesn't


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ID-007
    • 1900

    Ran, thank you for confirming the non-existence.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ran6996

    Doing my best, and aren't you learning a LOT of languages? How can you do that? :D


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ID-007
    • 1900

    If you refer to finishing a LOT of DL trees, then it is true that I did that! When Immersion was around, finishing a tree gave me enough information to do translation work from many languages. Translation work is not as involved as "learning" the language... But, yes, I did learn to read, speak and write basic sentences in many languages and in some of them, I got quite advanced. Does that make sense? Of course, the story behind my answer is much longer!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ran6996

    I see, that's interesting. Do you work on the trees simultaneously? One by one? I myself wish to learn many more languages, and not so sure how to approach this.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ID-007
    • 1900

    To learn a lot of languages is not that hard IF you can learn one in each group. For example, once you learn German, it is fairly easy to 'pick up' the other Germanic languages. The same goes for the Latin (Romance) and Slavic languages... The Asian languages are a bit more complex (at least to me they seem seem so) but I find Chinese worthwhile learning because it seems to be linked to the Hebrew culture more than any other language!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ID-007
    • 1900

    I dabbled in different languages before DL was around. For me, working on multiple (related trees) is not very difficult. Usually, I do one NEW language (for example Swahili or Japanese) at a time while I practice languages that I am familiar with (for example, German, Greek, or Hebrew) at the same time. Sometimes, I spend a LOT of time in one language; other times, I spend a little bit of time in several at the same time... Languages are a hobby, so I don't have a fixed schedule and my free time varies from week to week...


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hrafnunga

    Non-native here more familiar with ancient Hebrew, but from the modern dictionaries I've seen it's still strictly used as a prefix, unless maybe as a colloquial interjection ("Yes, and...).


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ID-007
    • 1900

    Thank you John. Google translator shows 'אֵת' as a possible word but I am looking for a native speaker to confirm it! Yes, that word can be found in some ancient Hebrew versions of Genesis 1:1, which makes it interesting as the use of 'vav' is the common form in Genesis 1. But here, I am interested in what the modern Hebrew usage is...


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hrafnunga

    The archaic usage of אֵת is very much different than the modern. In modern Hebrew, it is borrowed from Latin et ("and"), but in ancient Hebrew it meant to or with. Do you have any examples of manuscripts that use it for Genesis 1:1? I'd never heard of it being used there before.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ID-007
    • 1900

    An easy one to check would be the WLC_v (v1.1): Westminster Leningrad Codex with vowels. You can find it at: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

    After going through the DL Hebrew course, I wonder if the Gen 1:1 constructs I mentioned earlier are not the same as the modern version usage... Feel free to contact me directly for more details on this topic. Thanks.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hrafnunga

    Ah, well, את here is the definite direct object marker, which is not translated into English. I thought you meant the use of et meaning and. Here ו means and.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Scripture.Page

    The word 'גם' means 'also', which could function as the word 'and'. However, 'גם' usually appears with the 'ו' in front of it: גם כלב וגם חתול


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ID-007
    • 1900

    VenerableOrigen, Thank you kindly. Happy Holidays and enjoy the lingot!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Scripture.Page

    "Me" is a direct object pronoun. "You and I" would be "אתה ואני", but "you and me", as direct object pronouns (since in English 'you' functions as both a subject and direct object pronoun), would be "אותך ואותי".


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/janekhaled

    why there's no space between אני and ו?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Scripture.Page

    In Hebrew, the word 'and' is an proclitic, always attached to the beginning of the word you are adding to the list. For instance: 'dog and cat' = 'כלב וחתול'


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chelseawei11

    Why does it always correct at/atah like its the same thing and it doesnt specify the gender


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JonahHarman

    Why did I not get it right by saying 'You & I'


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/benton.1

    Because you typed "&" instead of "and".


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tu.8zPhLySD9eGoy

    Again, Does the order not matter? Or is it a "bug"?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/benton.1

    The order of the words in a sentence matters.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/german4everyeah

    What is the difference between את and אתה


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/benton.1

    "אתה" is "you" masculine and "את" is "you" feminine.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BillAck

    Seems like arabic word انت و انا


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BronSavini

    I am a raw beginner. What's the sg?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/benton.1

    "sg" is the abbreviation of the word "singular".


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gilad887196

    אתה is esey


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/London.CHANEL

    So, where's "and" in the sentence?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eshalev

    The letter ו preceding the word אני is the "and".


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/London.CHANEL

    Thank you. I think you know the letters and their sounds, I want to know if there are different letters with the same sounds, or it's just my ears! Also, is this the same Hebrew of Yemenis?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eshalev

    Yes, there could be some letters that would sound the same. Yemenis as the language they speak in Yemen? Otherwise, I am not sure what you mean by Yemenis.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/London.CHANEL

    I mean the Yemenite Hebrew or maybe Temani Hebrew.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eshalev

    TL;DR: To answer your question, yes is it the same though pronounced differently.

    The Hebrew speakers who originate from Yemen (Temanim) speak the same Hebrew like the rest in terms of spelling and grammar. They do, however, along with other middle eastern originating Hebrew speakers, pronounce the ח (chet) and the ע (Ayin) from inside the through in a manner similar to Arabic.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/London.CHANEL

    Thank you so much.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NeilJaqua

    Why does that x looking letter make an "ah" sound in the first word but an "ee" in the second?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

    Aleph א ("the x looking letter") has the same sound in both words - "ah" - > ata va-ani. Aleph actually doesn't "make" a sound on it's own. Its sound always comes from the vowel that is attached to it.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eshalev

    Aleph does make a sound on its own! The sound is Ah. In Hebrew, we use Niqqude (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niqqud) which is an orthography similar to vowels in English. The letter Aleph either represents a glottal stop or indicates a hiatus (the separation of two adjacent vowels into distinct syllables, with no intervening consonant). It is sometimes silent (word-finally always, word-medially sometimes: הוּא [hu] "he", רָאשִׁי [Rashi] "main", רֹאשׁ [Rosh] "head", רִאשׁוֹן [Rishon] "first"). The pronunciation varies in different Jewish ethnic divisions.

    The Niqqude will offer help in pronunciation and sadly, is not included in Duo.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

    Yes, and what you wrote actually says what I also wrote. Aleph is not like other letters. A glottal stop is not a "letter". It is a sound, but not like bet, or resh. And just like the examples you listed - the sound of aleph comes from the nikud that is attached to it, not from the letter itself.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eshalev

    Aleph has a sound and a glottal stop is one of Aleph's functions. In the word אבא The first Aleph has a sound. It is "Ah". It is not related to any other latter. The second Aleph Acts similar to a vowel and does not have a sound but gives the tone for the Bet. You wrote "Aleph actually doesn't "make" a sound on it's own ". It does.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

    In the word אבא, the first aleph is pronounced "ah" because of patach, and the first aleph in אמא is pronounced "ee" because of hiriq, NOT because those are the sounds that aleph originally makes. Aleph is a vowel holder.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eshalev

    If Aleph is just a place holder, explain the difference in pronunciation between ע and א. Watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-9MMghUsLo) for reference.

    Aleph is an אם קריאה (https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%9D_%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%90%D7%94) which is what you meant, a letter used for a vowel and not a constant. For example in the word ראשון (Rishon)(https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90). But Aleph an אם קיראה does have a sound. The אם קריאה latter are אהו"י. Each of them has a unique sound. א is ah, ה is ha, ו is va, and י is ya. All are different sounds and all may be subjugated ti Niqqude. A point below the א will create the sound ea. But it is a sound!

    I am sorry if it is hard for you but I think you are wrong in saying that Aleph does not have a sound. I have made my best to support it with references. I am really not here to argue with anyone. My goal is to help NeilJaqua as best I can. He will decide which is the best answer for him. My conversation with you on the topic is over since you do not support your claims by anything other than your opinion and the conversation does not benefit any of us.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

    Then, what you are saying is the opposite of what is written in the tips and notes and what many other Hebrew teaching sites say, and what other Hebrew natives I spoke with. Excuse me if I take their word over yours.

    Yes, you shared some links, but I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

    Anyway, thanks for the downvotes. I thought we were having a discussion, but apparently I was wrong.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eshalev

    דני יקר אני מבין שנורא בוער לך להיות צודק אבל אתה חייב לזכור את המטרה כאן. המטרה היא לעזור לבחור שמנסה ללמוד את השפה. לא נורא אם טעית. שחרר..

    לאות א' יש צליל בין אם אתה רוצה או לא ולא משנה עם כמה דוברי עברית דיברת. אם הקישורים הקודמים שלי לא טובים לך, הנה לך אחד מהאקדמיה ללשון (https://hebrew-academy.org.il/2013/09/01/%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%99-%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%93/). עם האקדמיה קשה להתווכח כי הם אלה בקובעים. שם לב במיוחד להגדרות של עיצור, תנועה ואם קריאה. א' היא אם קריאה ותנועה (לא עיצור נכון ואני חושב שזו הכוונה שלך). אבל לא כתוב בשום מקום שאין לה צליל. אם תצליח להביא לי גורם רשמי אחד שמציין של-א' אין צליל אני אסיר בפניך את הכובע. דוברי עברית אחרים זה ממש לא מספיק. רוב האנשים שמדברים עברית מדוברת עושים המון טעויות.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeoTolstoy6

    Which gender is אתה used for?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ronaldo623

    Is it va-ani or ve-ani?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

    "va-ani" is correct by the formal "academy" rules, Hebrew speakers would invariably say "ve-ani". See my very long comment above with my theory on why the Duolingo speaker pronounced "va-ani".


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AzIgaziZsoozsy

    You and I doesn't sound English to me. It should be you and me.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

    It depends on what you want to say, but both "you and I" and "you and me" are correct. Here "you and me" shouldn't be correct, because it uses the object pronouns, which would be אותך ואותי or לך ולי, depending on the context.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AbbyYeger

    I put the and sign(&) it was wrong


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NicoleGon36

    Cause.. YOU AND IIIIIIIIII


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jhones930810

    Why, I don't understand!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/pIQk13

    You and " me", not "I"


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eshalev

    Both are valid in english


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Pcoco_priest

    The English translations is grammatically incorrect. It's you and me(one of the few cases where you say "me" and not "I"


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hrafnunga

    No, it isn't. You use "me" for the direct or indirect object, not for the subject. To know for sure which you should use, take out the other personal pronoun. You don't say "me am going to the store" so you don't say "you and me are going to the store" - you say "you and I."

    http://www.betterwritingskills.com/tip-w026.html

    The example in this lesson is not a sentence, but the accusative/dative "me" would look different in Hebrew, so we know it's nominative. For example, "you love me" would be אתה אוהב אותי, where אותי means "me." The dative is formed from the preposition ל־ and takes the form לי for "to/for me."


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nancypundsack

    Then why does it have a period? Does every phrase or word have a period?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hrafnunga

    It's up to the course creators whether to use a period for fragments. Some courses do, some don't. I don't remember specifically for most of them, but I think the Welsh course doesn't.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ID-007
    • 1900

    Both are correct DEPENDING on the context. Examples:

    1. Who is going skiing? You and I.
    2. Who is this cake for? You and me.

    HTH, Daniel


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/yamit532474

    It's better to say you and me and not you and I


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/benton.1

    "You and I" are subject pronouns. "You and Me" are object pronouns. "You and I are studying Hebrew. You are studying Hebrew. I am studying Hebrew." Not, "Me am studying Hebrew." But, "He gave the dog to you and me. He gave the dog to you. He gave the dog to me." Not, "He gave the dog to I."

    The comment is 3 yrs old and has 7 down votes. Maybe we should have just "Let sleeping dogs lie".


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/phuvtuo

    Definitely not.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eshalev

    How is it better?

    Learn Hebrew in just 5 minutes a day. For free.