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  5. "ילדיו של הרופא רוצים עוגה."

"ילדיו של הרופא רוצים עוגה."

Translation:The doctor's children want cake.

June 22, 2016

39 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DJvdZ

Could the Hebrew sentence also have been "הילדים של הרופא רוצים עוגה"? The double use of the 'genitive' (once with the 3.m.sing. possessive suffix, and once with של) seems a bit strange to me. Maybe someone could explain it to me.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cyanivde

You're right.

Both options are valid and commonly used. "ילדיו של הרופא" is a bit more formal.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DJvdZ

Well, that's good to know. Thank you for your quick response, Yaniv!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/will_do

Thanks for that info. Whats the kind of formal situation you'd use this in? I keep reading it's more formal but I still don't understand any examples of situations when that might be...?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

Newscasters, a teacher speaking to her class (?), a fairy tale, a speaker addressing a distinguished audience, or any occasion you’d imagine English using elevated language. But I can’t think of when an ordinary person would use it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

Right on the spot; especially the question mark on the teacher... I imagine one in 300 teachers would use it in class, which is still more than the general population.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/airelibre

The "double use of the genitive" is indeed strange but you get used to it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gerardd88

I've noticed a lot of similarities between Hebrew and Turkish when it comes to some specific parts of grammar (like the use of to be/ to have; This "double genitive" is also one of them. It reminds me a lot of the Turkish genitive/possessive constructions). It's quite surprising since these are the languages from different families. Do you think there is any reason for that or is it just my need to see something familiar and an illusion of my "sore Indo-European eyes"? :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/airelibre

I'm not sure what the similarity is that you're seeing. Could you give an example?

In Turkish, as far as I know, the only way to say "the doctor's children" is doktorun çocukları - the word order is different to Hebrew, and both doktor and çocuklar are marked with inflections to show their relationship to one another. There's no word equivalent to של.

In Hebrew, you can say:

הילדים של הרופא

ילדיו של הרופא

ילדי הרופא
(But this last one is not so natural in Modern Hebrew for this particular sentence [more like "the doctor-children"], although I believe it's entirely natural in Biblical - in modern Hebrew this type of construct is reserved for closely related objects: water bottle, birthday cake, hospital, and so on, but as in Arabic, in Biblical Hebrew the construct can be used for simple possession. I guess though that in modern Hebrew this last type is more like Turkish construct nouns, eg. בקבוקי יין şarap şişileri and not şarabın şişeleri [wine bottles versus the wine's bottles]).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gerardd88

I didn't mean they really have the same constructions but that they just look or feel similar or contain similar ideas. For example you use the to have constructions like של and var for expressing possession as well as for there is/are... construction. This marking of both the possessor and the thing possessed is also quite a similar concept. You can add to it the lack of to be. For example Russian also uses it in a similar way but the things I mentioned before are completely different.

I want to point out again that I know it may seem silly since these aren't, in most cases, any real linguistic similarities. I still know very little about Hebrew grammar so I can't list many examples (only such general naïve ones) but I've seen things or structures in Hebrew (mostly details, not necessarily the ones I've mentioned before) that felt like Turkish. It's a very nice feeling, that's why I thought it was interesting.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/airelibre

There are a few similarities between the two languages, but there are also several similarities between Turkish and English, like the positioning and non-inflection of adjectives (mavi elbiseler - blue dresses), which is a nice change from all the other major languages.

I don't see the connection with possessives (של means "of" and has no direct equivalent in Turkish, but there is a slight similarity between the ways of saying "he has", "I have" and so on, making use of "there is":

Benim çocuklarım var
יש לי ילדים

Doktorun çocukları var.
יש לרופא ילדים

I must note that I don't know much Turkish, and there may well be more natural ways of writing those sentences (using çocuğu for example) but this just serves to highlight the fact that the words var/יש are used.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Shouldn't it be pronounced יְלָדָיו instead of *יַלְדָיו


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DL-Trolls

Good. This was messing with me.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mabel544786

how to write it in singular? The doctors son?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, keeping the double possessive this would be יַלְדּוֹ / בְּנוֹ שֶׁל הָרוֹפֵא רוֹצֶה עוּגָה the child / son of the doctor wants cake.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rochelle43

Why isn't it yelediM (with a mem) for children? Why a nun at the end of the word?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, יְלָדִים is the plural children, but written with waw (not nun), you have his children, here used in the redundant construction his children, (the ones) of the doctor


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LuisM146232

Please, these lessons are missing sound tracks? I need them to reinforce my knowledge.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

I have the audio for this sentence and I’m doing these lessons on my phone. Not all the Duolingo exercises have sound. If they don’t have sound, look to see here on the forum if someone else provided the transliteration. Here, the transliteration is

Yeladav shel ha-rofa rotsim uga.

DL has been asked many times to provide sound for all of the sentences, but that request has not been fulfilled.

If no transliteration has been given here, I look up the words one by one on the Pealim site. That works well except for words with an undetachable prefix before it. For example, The dog runs to a/the restaurant. ‏הכלב רץ למסעדה Is that last word le-misada or la-misada? If you don’t have sound, only context can guide your choice of le-misada, a restaurant or la-misada, the restaurant.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Reza6613

Is it not better to say ילדי של הרופא? I don't know what is the function of ו at the end of ילדיו.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/airelibre

Check the table in the notes again: https://www.duolingo.com/skill/he/Possessives-2

Plural object possessed by a singular male possessor: "-av"/"יו-".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Reza6613

Thank you. But I mean we can say this sentence in two ways ילדי הרופא ילדים של הרופא I don't understand why by using של we should omit the ם and further why we should add a ײוײ to have ילדיו של הרופא. So why?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

To help me remember this construction, I translate this sentence in my mind as, “The children of the doctor, his children, want cake.” Sure, “the doctor’s children want cake” is clearer, but Duolingo is teaching a more difficult way to say it. ילדי (yaldi?) is not an option for “his children”. Yaldo is one way to say “his child” that we learned before. Now we are learning “yeladav” as a way to say “his children”.

Also, you said that you don’t understand why by using של we should omit the ם. In answer, one way to state the sentence is: Ha-yeladim shel ha-rofe rotsim ugah. Another more formal way to state the sentence that we’re practicing here is: Yeladav shel ha-rofe rotsim ugah. So the reason they omitted the ם from yeladim was in order to use a different more formal form.

Personally, I long for the days of ha-yeladim shelo...so much easier.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/stern697996

Is it "children" and not "child"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, in this construction child would be יַלְדּוֹ, i.e. literally his child, (the one) of the doctor.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DTFM111

אנחנו חוזרים


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

For newbies like me, DTFM’s comment means “we are coming back”, anakhnu khozrim and by that I think he means that we are coming back to the easier days of “‏הילדים שלו”.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DTFM111

דרך מגניבה, אני גם חדשה


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

I can’t copy and paste your comment onto a translation site, so to understand you I typed in the Hebrew words one by one and came up with: “Road insinuate, I am also a newbie.” DTFM, you are far more advanced than I so it’s difficult to understand you!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

It seems that מַגְנִיב it not so cool anymore, when you shift the stress to the first syylable (when it is often written מַ֫אגְנִיב in a slangy way), as this article states., so that it means nowadys wanabe cool!: Like מַזָּל שֶׂלֹא הֶבֵאת אֶת כׇּל הַחֲבֵרִים הַמַ֫אגְנִיבִים שֶׁלָּךְ. לֹא בָּא לִי עֲלֵיהֶם עַכְשָׁיו It's great that you didn't bring all your magnivim friends. I don't feel like seeing them right now.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DTFM111

You translated road correctly(דרך) ... Looks like .. way+road .. are about the same ... original message is ..WayCool i am also new ..


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

Speaking to the general non-advanced Duolingo readership, Pealim says that “cool!” is מגניבה (magniva) and literally means “smuggle”. Maybe this is similar to people saying “wicked!” for something good.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaPaulKrug

How can I tell it is "children," and not "boy," or "child"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

The verb ‏רוצים rotsim, is plural, so you know it refers to children.

Also, IngeborgHa14 mentioned above that in this construction, his child or his boy would be ילדו yaldo.

Yaldo ילדו is singular, so you would know by the verb if the child is a boy or a girl.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JanetCaterina

ילדיו is something I have never seen before

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