"זאת מסעדתי או המסעדה שלי?"
Translation:Is it my restaurant or my restaurant?
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Is this unnatural sentence just to show the difference between combining conjugations?
Perhaps a student confused with those pronouns (just like a lot of people here, well, at least me :)) would say this asking which form is correct. If you think about it that way it's a pretty useful phrase. :)
Since Theresa woke this thread up... That's a clever suggestion, but doesn't quite work. Suppose even you put quotation marks around מסעדתי and המסעדה שלי; What's the role of זאת? If it should parallel the "it" in "Is it 'horse' or 'mare'", in Hebrew we'd probably use זה, definitely not זאת.
Would the student be wrong because, in asking which form is correct, that implies that one form is incorrect?
I think that's exactly what it is: showing the different ways to construct the possessive.
Is this for emphasis (I know that the Hebrew language uses repetition for emphasis) as in the person asking it rhetorically to a non-owner who is acting autocratic? And the owner is asserting himself? Or am I overthinking it? :)
I'd say you're overthinking it -- it's more that the sentence is presented this way to show the two different ways to word the possessive. Just my thought, though.
It occurred to me, too! But the Hebrew way to see it would be זאת המסעדה שלי או (זאת) המסעדה שלי. Changing one of them to מסעדתי would severely weaken the impression...
You would say, 'is it my resaturant or my restaurant?'. You wouldn't say, 'is it my restaurant or is it my diner?'
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In English people say "Am I right or am I right?" The German equivalent is "Stimmt's oder hab ich recht?" ("Is it [what I said] correct or am I right?") In Spanish: "¿Sí o sí?" What's the preference in Hebrew, repetition or variation?
Well, I find the German really hilarious and cheeky, because it pretends there to be a choice, when there isn't relly one given. I have seen the Hebrew expression הַאִם אֲנִי צוֹדֵק אוֹ שֶׁאֲנִי צוֹדֵק am I right or (is it) that I am right with only a slight variation in it.
It's humoristic expressions which are not idioms in Hebrew, so it's down to every speaker's taste and creativity. I think most speakers would tend to go for repetition (maybe influenced by English).
FWIW to my taste the variation given here seems very not elegant, and I'd much prefer "המסעדה שלי או המסעדה שלי". Maybe it's because מסעדתי is so formal. I wouldn't mind "אתה יכול להגיד לי או לומר לי".
I like this sentence languages are useful for having fun as well, don't take life so seriously
This sentence is fun if you enjoy the challenge of figuring out how “Is this my restaurant or my restaurant?” could possibly make sense. Actually, it only makes sense in Hebrew. For the English to make sense, Duolingo should have put quotation marks around both occurrences of “my restaurant”.
For me, a student of Biblical Hebrew, מסעדתי is much more beautiful :) Will people in Israel be confused if I would use many of those typical biblical terms?
They (we) would totally understand what you mean, and totally think you're talking funny (-:
Yeah seeing it in the Bible and its similarity to Arabic makes me want to speak like this. It is so fun
Well, the form with the suffixed possessive מִסְעַדְתִּי is formal, the one with שֶׁל a neutral register.
What is that mark between the s and the a? Are you saying it should be a deep ע (like the Yemenites)?
Yes, it marks the Sephardi pronunciation. I know that the standard pronunciation for עַ֫יִן is the glottal stop (ʔ) or nothing at all, but I wanted to mark the phoneme for those who prefer to pronounce it. And no, you shouldn't, but might.
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It's probably the equivalent of when someone says to you, "Am I right or am I right?" I don't like it. :-)
I don't think it is, because he's not saying the same thing. No one says, "am I right or am I correct?"
Are the two completely interchangeable or do some circumstances call for one or the other?
Is there a difference that would make one form more suitable than the other dependent on context? (Eg level of formality)
Wouldn't a better translation be "Is this my restaurant or the restaurant of mine?"
Does not "my restaurant" and "the restaurant of mine" mean the exact same thing too?
I might hear someone say “a restaurant of mine”, someone who has enough money to own more than one restaurant, but I can’t imagine anyone saying “the restaurant of mine”.
Well, to put it more positively for those who love the small things that can escape casual notice, in Hebrew אֱלֹהִים נִמְצָא בַּפְּרָטִים הַקְּטַנִּים G-d is in the small details is as much used as the version with הַשָּׂטָן.
Im confused as to why "my restaurant" comes before "my restaurants". Isnt ממסעדתי the plural?
Missed it because I didn't realize what you were doing. I have trouble spelling in Hebrew, anyway. Discourages me a little.
I like this example. Is it "מסעדתי" or "סכדה שלי"? Not unnatural nor bullying at all...
He wants to assert to his friends that it is definitelly his restaurant. It is elegant when you can express something in a language twice in order to emphasise, it makes a language rich in style and expressions
He says mis'adti, pausing on the ע, but he says misada sheli, with no pause on the ע. Why? Are there different regular patterns of pronunciation here, and if so, what's the guidance? Thanks.
Well, those who do not pronounce the ע as a seperate phoneme, i.e. as a voiced pharyngeal fricative like in Arabic, can replace it with a glottal stop, which is also the pronunciation of א. English dialects have it too, often as a replacement of /t/ like in getting better [ɡɛʔɪŋ bɛʔə(ɹ)]. But the glottal stop is not phonemic in Hebrew, most speakers leave it out or use it inconsistently (like in this example). You can use it to stress minimal pairs, like by saying: I do not mean מַלָּח sailor, but מַלְאָךְ angel! (malax <-> malʔax).
Thanks, Ingeborg!
Do some Israelis still voice the ע and the א and if so, can one hear a difference between them? And might you know of a link to a recording of them being used?
Try the amazing "Hoshana" by voice artist Victoria Hana: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl1epz3tSSA. When she sings all the letters in the beginning the ע is not always clear, nor when she pronounces the theme word הושענא towards the end; but in 2:07 starts a sequence of short verses all ending with עה, pronounced beautifully, culminating in 2:49.
Yes, ayin and alef are still spoken in a distinctly different way by some people. I googled Hebrew ayin pronunciation but I couldn’t find any short YouTube video with a clear pronunciation of ayin.
If you go to memrise.com, that speaker pronounces ayin very distinctly and in a way that’s easy to hear, at least for me. Memrise is a very fun and effective way to practice Duolingo Hebrew (one of the DL course creators put it together).
Theresa, Ingeborg, thank you for these links. I don't hear it yet, but I'll keep listening and see if it comes to me. Best wishes to you both.
You're right the speaker here pronounce it differently, and there's no "justified" reason. Here is my guess for the actual reason: מסעדה (or המסעדה) is a very common, daily word, so he pronounce it naturally (no stop). מסעדתי is a formal form, and artificial for this example, so he makes more of a ceremony in pronouncing it, including a stop.
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Maybe Duo put this no sense phrase just to show us the difference between the conjugations, but in English it has the same meaning "מסעדתי" and "המסעדה שלי".