"זאת מסעדתי או המסעדה שלי?"

Translation:Is it my restaurant or my restaurant?

June 22, 2016

69 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Menasheh

Is this unnatural sentence just to show the difference between combining conjugations?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gerardd88

Perhaps a student confused with those pronouns (just like a lot of people here, well, at least me :)) would say this asking which form is correct. If you think about it that way it's a pretty useful phrase. :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

Since Theresa woke this thread up... That's a clever suggestion, but doesn't quite work. Suppose even you put quotation marks around מסעדתי and המסעדה שלי; What's the role of זאת? If it should parallel the "it" in "Is it 'horse' or 'mare'", in Hebrew we'd probably use זה, definitely not זאת.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaPaulKrug

Or both are correct?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Menasheh

Not when you consider the fact that the student would be confused and wrong...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

Would the student be wrong because, in asking which form is correct, that implies that one form is incorrect?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Snommelp

I think that's exactly what it is: showing the different ways to construct the possessive.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Knoxienne

Is this for emphasis (I know that the Hebrew language uses repetition for emphasis) as in the person asking it rhetorically to a non-owner who is acting autocratic? And the owner is asserting himself? Or am I overthinking it? :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Snommelp

I'd say you're overthinking it -- it's more that the sentence is presented this way to show the two different ways to word the possessive. Just my thought, though.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Knoxienne

You're probably right! Overthinking is my favorite pastime. :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Snommelp

You and me both :-P


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChristianMercat

Me, myself and I confer in overthinking


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaPaulKrug

Has anyone in this thread thought it through, yet?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

It occurred to me, too! But the Hebrew way to see it would be זאת המסעדה שלי או (זאת) המסעדה שלי. Changing one of them to מסעדתי would severely weaken the impression...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChayaDoppelt

You would say, 'is it my resaturant or my restaurant?'. You wouldn't say, 'is it my restaurant or is it my diner?'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cVC9doiH

In English people say "Am I right or am I right?" The German equivalent is "Stimmt's oder hab ich recht?" ("Is it [what I said] correct or am I right?") In Spanish: "¿Sí o sí?" What's the preference in Hebrew, repetition or variation?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, I find the German really hilarious and cheeky, because it pretends there to be a choice, when there isn't relly one given. I have seen the Hebrew expression הַאִם אֲנִי צוֹדֵק אוֹ שֶׁאֲנִי צוֹדֵק am I right or (is it) that I am right with only a slight variation in it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

It's humoristic expressions which are not idioms in Hebrew, so it's down to every speaker's taste and creativity. I think most speakers would tend to go for repetition (maybe influenced by English).

FWIW to my taste the variation given here seems very not elegant, and I'd much prefer "המסעדה שלי או המסעדה שלי". Maybe it's because מסעדתי is so formal. I wouldn't mind "אתה יכול להגיד לי או לומר לי".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoseNOlivares

I like this sentence languages are useful for having fun as well, don't take life so seriously


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

This sentence is fun if you enjoy the challenge of figuring out how “Is this my restaurant or my restaurant?” could possibly make sense. Actually, it only makes sense in Hebrew. For the English to make sense, Duolingo should have put quotation marks around both occurrences of “my restaurant”.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sebby94

For me, a student of Biblical Hebrew, מסעדתי is much more beautiful :) Will people in Israel be confused if I would use many of those typical biblical terms?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

They (we) would totally understand what you mean, and totally think you're talking funny (-:


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/svaca19

Yeah seeing it in the Bible and its similarity to Arabic makes me want to speak like this. It is so fun


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NumanAltin

Which one of these forms if more commonly used in everyday spoken Hebrew?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, the form with the suffixed possessive מִסְעַדְתִּי is formal, the one with שֶׁל a neutral register.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

It should be pronounced מִסְעֲדָתִי [misʕadati].


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChayaDoppelt

What is that mark between the s and the a? Are you saying it should be a deep ע (like the Yemenites)?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Yes, it marks the Sephardi pronunciation. I know that the standard pronunciation for עַ֫יִן is the glottal stop (ʔ) or nothing at all, but I wanted to mark the phoneme for those who prefer to pronounce it. And no, you shouldn't, but might.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PennyFore

It's probably the equivalent of when someone says to you, "Am I right or am I right?" I don't like it. :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChayaDoppelt

I don't think it is, because he's not saying the same thing. No one says, "am I right or am I correct?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Silsool

Are the two completely interchangeable or do some circumstances call for one or the other?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NaftaliFri1

They are the same


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChayaDoppelt

Though most natives, when not talking formally, say המסעדה שלי


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Arancaytar

Is there a difference that would make one form more suitable than the other dependent on context? (Eg level of formality)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChayaDoppelt

Definitely. The merged words are way more formal.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hsn626796

This sentence made me doubt my knowledge for a few seconds. lol


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/olsenavery

Wouldn't a better translation be "Is this my restaurant or the restaurant of mine?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChayaDoppelt

I don't think so. מסעדתי means THE SAME EXACT THING AS המסעדה שלי.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Does not "my restaurant" and "the restaurant of mine" mean the exact same thing too?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

I might hear someone say “a restaurant of mine”, someone who has enough money to own more than one restaurant, but I can’t imagine anyone saying “the restaurant of mine”.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/yehuda7737

THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HTIKVA

I guess "the devil is in the details" which duo will never clarify!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, to put it more positively for those who love the small things that can escape casual notice, in Hebrew אֱלֹהִים נִמְצָא בַּפְּרָטִים הַקְּטַנִּים G-d is in the small details is as much used as the version with הַשָּׂטָן.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YHalperin1

It's your restaurant


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/WickdCool

Im confused as to why "my restaurant" comes before "my restaurants". Isnt ממסעדתי the plural?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NaftaliFri1

The plural would be מסעדותיי


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kaharina1

No! It's singular.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sandy59524

Missed it because I didn't realize what you were doing. I have trouble spelling in Hebrew, anyway. Discourages me a little.


[deactivated user]

    I see what you did there.


    [deactivated user]

      I like this example. Is it "מסעדתי" or "סכדה שלי"? Not unnatural nor bullying at all...


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Binyamin_

      Obviously it's yours!!


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ArcturusArcturus

      He wants to assert to his friends that it is definitelly his restaurant. It is elegant when you can express something in a language twice in order to emphasise, it makes a language rich in style and expressions


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jana30315

      אני חושבת שהמסעדה שייכת לי


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Cuxb15

      So they mean the same?


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GeoffreyWB

      He says mis'adti, pausing on the ע, but he says misada sheli, with no pause on the ע. Why? Are there different regular patterns of pronunciation here, and if so, what's the guidance? Thanks.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

      Well, those who do not pronounce the ע as a seperate phoneme, i.e. as a voiced pharyngeal fricative like in Arabic, can replace it with a glottal stop, which is also the pronunciation of א. English dialects have it too, often as a replacement of /t/ like in getting better [ɡɛʔɪŋ bɛʔə(ɹ)]. But the glottal stop is not phonemic in Hebrew, most speakers leave it out or use it inconsistently (like in this example). You can use it to stress minimal pairs, like by saying: I do not mean מַלָּח sailor, but מַלְאָךְ angel! (malax <-> malʔax).


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GeoffreyWB

      Thanks, Ingeborg!

      Do some Israelis still voice the ע and the א and if so, can one hear a difference between them? And might you know of a link to a recording of them being used?


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

      Try the amazing "Hoshana" by voice artist Victoria Hana: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl1epz3tSSA. When she sings all the letters in the beginning the ע is not always clear, nor when she pronounces the theme word הושענא towards the end; but in 2:07 starts a sequence of short verses all ending with עה, pronounced beautifully, culminating in 2:49.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

      Yes, ayin and alef are still spoken in a distinctly different way by some people. I googled Hebrew ayin pronunciation but I couldn’t find any short YouTube video with a clear pronunciation of ayin.

      If you go to memrise.com, that speaker pronounces ayin very distinctly and in a way that’s easy to hear, at least for me. Memrise is a very fun and effective way to practice Duolingo Hebrew (one of the DL course creators put it together).


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

      Well, a good example for a dialect making this distincion is Yemenite Hebrew.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GeoffreyWB

      Theresa, Ingeborg, thank you for these links. I don't hear it yet, but I'll keep listening and see if it comes to me. Best wishes to you both.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

      You're right the speaker here pronounce it differently, and there's no "justified" reason. Here is my guess for the actual reason: מסעדה (or המסעדה) is a very common, daily word, so he pronounce it naturally (no stop). מסעדתי is a formal form, and artificial for this example, so he makes more of a ceremony in pronouncing it, including a stop.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GeoffreyWB

      Ooh, Yarden, I like it!!


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ThomasOveja

      Maybe Duo put this no sense phrase just to show us the difference between the conjugations, but in English it has the same meaning "מסעדתי" and "המסעדה שלי".

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