"ילדים וגברים."

Translation:Children and men.

June 22, 2016

32 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/42.bqsyONJ01mdjS

Why does the vav before 'men' sound like an 'o' instead of a 'v'? I've noticed this whenever "and men" is referenced


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NaftaliFri1

The "and" ו turns from "ve" sound to "oo" in a few occasions. One of them, here, where the word starts without a vowel - גברים = gvarim - the g goes right into the v, no additional vowel. To eliminate consecutive non-sounding (or nearly so) consonants the language turns the "ve" into "oo"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ran6996

I'm no expert in such rules of the language, but just wanted to note that in a casual manner of speaking you can pretty much always say 've' and it would be perfectly acceptable..


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ran6996

(which is possibly a mistake but nowadays that's how people in Israel speak...)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Daniel495432

So just to be clear, when it comes to "and" the 'o' version is common in colloquial Hebrew, sounds more natural, but is viewed as incorrect traditionally? When can it occur? Before consonant clusters?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ran6996

The 've' version is more common in colloquial Hebrew. There's no 'o' version but rather an 'oo' version, (meaning it sound more like an 'u' sound). It's not very common in everyday talk.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/phuvtuo

No, they said the opposite of what you just said. They are saying that it is not proper to use the v sound with consecutive nonsounding consonants but that people have begun to do it commonly.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shani.gorm

I think the important question here is, do you want to sound like a native Modern Hebrew Speaker? or like a radio announcer/religious person? The majority of modern hebrew speakers use the "ve" pronunciation every time. Only official scripts from the radio/TV use the "oo" pronunciation and very religious people reading from formal texts. So it is a question of register - not "proper".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tomgoldie1

So it's like oog b'v' reem? It's so fast it's hard to hear without knowing what it SHOULD be :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AneurinEE

Yes - I'd like to know this too.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hectorlqr

yeladím u-gvarím.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/silviavdh7

but in the streets in Israel they always says "ve", in the news "oo"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sparkle

most people don't know when to use oo, so they just use ve, or quite commonly use oo incorrectly


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/larry462783

The voice is hard for me to understand


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shani.gorm

I think the important question here is, do you want to sound like a native Modern Hebrew speaker? or like a radio announcer/religious person? The majority of Modern Hebrew speakers use the "ve" pronunciation every time. Only official scripts from the radio/TV use the "oo" pronunciation and very religious people reading from formal texts. So it is a question of register - not "proper".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eunkeum

What does the ם' make and when do I have to use it?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NaftaliFri1

It's the suffix that shows the word is plural. Like the "s" in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eunkeum

Oh I understand, thank you.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/leysont

-im (ים) is the male plural ending. -ot (ות) is the female one.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wO6yWyIG

But "women" has a male plural ending: "nashim" (נשים)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/linguafiqari

It's an irregular plural.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EdvntL

An Israeli told me the -im / -ot "rule" is only helpful with verbs and adjectives. He says that so many nouns have the plural ending of the "wrong" gender that you cannot use it reliably with nouns. He believes there are too many to be called "exceptions" - better to just memorize the plural as you learn a new noun (like most of the times in German, I guess).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YingFi

The sound bit does not sound like the Hebrew and, but the Hebrew or.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Basilious

Yeladeem ogvareem. That is what I hear.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Maxentrix500

so from what I am reading, the "ve" turns into an "oo" sound because "גברים" starts with a "g" sound. But how this this different than "או"? When I heard it it sounded like he was saying "Children or men" not "children and men". Is it just contextual clues to tell the difference?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

Not quite. There are two occasions when ו is pronounced "oo". One is when the first letter of the word is ב, ו, מ or פ (BUMP is a cool mnemonic to remember them). Second is when the first letter of the word, and this can be any letter, has a shva under it, meaning there is no vowel attached to it, which is the case here. If the word were written with nikud, it would be גְּבָרִים. Note that this is considered formal and rarely used in everyday language. You will hear it, however, on TV, radio, lectures and some other more formal settings.

Second, ו is pronounced "oo" as in "good". On the other hand, או is pronounced "o" as in "got" (British English pronunciation). They are not the same sound.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

In American English, got is pronounced with an ah sound. Are you saying that או (meaning “or”) is pronounced with an ah sound?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David432528

So the "eem" sound pluralises it? Also should I assume its like spanish where the plural of children bases from the male version of the word?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

Yes, in most cases ים says the word is in plural. Usually it is a noun that is masculine. I say in most cases, because, very soon you'll encounter the word "tasty" which is טעים "ta'im" in Hebrew. It has ים at the end, but this word is the singular form of the adjective.

So, there are two plural endings - ים is the usual plural ending for masculine nouns, like here ילד "yeled" is a child and ילדים "yeladim" is children; and ות is the usual plural ending for feminine nouns, like ילדה "yalda" is a girl and ילדות "yeladot" is girls.

There are, however, plenty of exceptions to this rule. One of the very first you'll come in contact is נשים "nashim" - women, which is the plural word of אישה "isha" - woman, both of which are obviously feminine. These exceptions you simply need to learn by heart.

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