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"Ele pediu aos juízes que olhassem seus documentos."

Translation:He asked that the judges look at his documents.

January 31, 2014

29 Comments
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https://www.duolingo.com/profile/spyglass398

I apologize for the repetition: if "olhassem" is past subjunctive in Portuguese, why is the correct translation the present indicative, "look at", in English?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emeyr

"He asked that the judges look at his documents" is the subjunctive form. The request is in the past, but we don't know whether the judges have looked at the papers. Subjunctive tenses leave that action up in the air.

A less formal translation uses an infinitive clause:
He asked the judges to look at his documents.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/baarreth_old

Your statement "we know that the request is in the past, but we don't yet know whether the judges have looked at the papers" enlightened me a lot. Maybe it is the same in Portuguese, and the phrase: "Ele pediu aos juízes que olhem seus documentos" does not make sense at all (it is equivalent to "olhassem").

So, it nullifies my need to force the past form in the past subjunctive, i.e., "He asked that the judges looked at his documents".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/spyglass398

Excellent point, emeyr. Thank you.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/liofla

Either I'm missing something or duolingo is very inconsistent here, in this sentence "looked" is refused, however in an other entry: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/6476952

"I thought that he understood me."

I understand that "he look" is the present subjunctive, however the past subjunctive of "to look" in english is "looked" so I don't understand why this sentence asks for the present subjunctive while that other one asks for the past.

What's wrong with "He asked that the judges looked (past subj.) at his documents."?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emeyr

"I thought that he understood me" is indicative,not subjunctive.

The subjunctive tense uses the base verb (infinitive without "to") in the subordinate clause regardless of whether the main verb is in the present or in the past tense.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/liofla

Interesting. Is it actually enforced in English? I'm not a native speaker but I can't say I've ever noticed the subjunctive being used consistently in regular not-overly-formal English.

I must say that ironically this lesson gives me a lot more trouble with the English sentences than the Portuguese ones...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jfb8

Why is the Portuguese sentence not "Ele pediu que os juízes olhassem seus documentos."?

Is it that he was asking the judges personally and not just making a general request?

In which case the answer should be "He asked the judges that they look at his documents". Maybe not, as it sounds clumsy but "He asked the judges to look at his documents" would convey the meaning.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/baarreth_old

Let me help.

First, lets check the verbal regency of "pedir", look here

1) "Quem pede, pede algo" (transititivo direto)

2) "Quem pede, pede algo a alguém" (transitivo direto e indireto)

3) "Quem pede, pede a alguém algo" (transitivo indireto e direto)

Examples:

1) Ele pede comida

2) Ele pede comida ao cozinheiro (more usual)

3) Ele pede ao cozinheiro comida (less usual)

Second, the "objects" are substituted by something called "período composto por subordinação", mainly because he is not asking for a concrete object, but for an action "to the judges see the documents".

So, in sequence:

1) "Ele pediu que os juízes olhassem seus documentos" ("que os juízes olhassem seus documentos" is a "oração subordinada substantiva objetiva direta" and it is equivalent to "objeto direto")

2) "Ele pediu que olhassem seus documentos aos juízes" (really strange, and probably wrong... do not use that... you will look like "yoda" from star wars)

3) "Ele pediu aos juízes que olhassem seus documentos" ("aos juízes" is the "objeto indireto", and "que olhassem seus documentos" is a "oração subordinada substantiva objetiva direta" and it is equivalent to "objeto direto")

EDITED FROM HERE (and again after emeyr and jfb8)

1) "Ele pediu que os juízes olhassem seus documentos" = "He asked that the judges look at his documents"

3) "Ele pediu aos juízes que olhassem seus documentos" = "He asked the judges to look at his documents"

As you noted, (1) and (3) do not hold exactly the same meaning. "Ele pediu que..." he may be asking to someone else, but not necessarily the judges.

So, it could be (correct my english, please):

1) "Ele pediu ao advogado que os juízes olhassem seus documentos" = "He asked the lawyer to have the judges look at his documents"

"Ele pediu aos juízes que olhem seus documentos" = "He asked the judges to look at his documents [today, not yesterday when he asked]"

What do you think?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emeyr

Ele pediu aos juizes que olhassem..." vs Ele pediu que os juizes olhassem.."?

Is the first sentence asking the judges to do something and the second asking that someone have the judges do something?

Ele pediu ao advogado que os juizes olhassem seus documentos => "He asked the lawyer to have the judges look at the documents."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/baarreth_old

Ow! Thank you! This was the expression ("to have") that I was looking for. It makes perfect sense! Better than "He asked the lawyer that the judges look at his documents" imho.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jfb8

Thank-you. My input to the looked/look debate would be:- I don't know which is grammaticaly correct but "looked" both sounds and appears "wrong" to me. I am from the UK. I am taking the "to look" option whenever I can on Duolingo to get through the lessons.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emeyr

In BrE, "looked at" is acceptable. In AmE, the subjunctive requires the base verb without "to" -> "look at"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/baarreth_old

Thank you again... I read and re-read the post from emeyr and others about english subjunctive, and I am convinced that "looked" is wrong (I even edited the post).

And what about "Ele pediu ao advogado que os juízes olhassem seus documentos", how would you translate this one?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jfb8

As you did "He asked the lawyer that the judges look at his documents" or would it be cheating to translate "que" as "if" and come up with "He asked the lawyer if the judges would look at his documents"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/baarreth_old

I will reply here to save two indentations.

The second option (with "if") changes the meaning of "ask" from a request to a question, imho.

"He asked the lawyer if the judges would look at his documents" = "Ele perguntou ao advogado se os juízes olhariam seus documentos"

There are some situations that "would + verb" (future in the past) and "had + verb" (past perfect) play the role of Portuguese subjunctive if they come in conditionals... but it is not the case here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/baarreth_old

So, short answer, I agree with you that: "Ele pediu aos juízes que olhassem seus documentos" should be "He asked the judges that they look at his documents" or "He asked the judges to look at his documents", but not the current one "He asked that the judges look at his documents", which means something different (a generic request... not specific to the judges).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emeyr

baarreth:

Your sentence: "He asked the judges that they look at his documents" uses the subjunctive form which represents formal English

He asked the judges to look at his documents" is more commonly used.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jfb8

Emyr

This all started with me being pedantic.

The sentence: "He asked the judges that they look at his documents" was concocted by me to demonstrate the difference between "Ele pediu aos juízes que..." and "Ele pediu que os juízes..."

Absolutely agree that "He asked the judges to look at his documents" is the best translation.

However still can't see "He asked that the judges look at his documents" as being absolutely correct.

My summary:-

"Ele pediu aos juízes que..." and "Ele pediu que os juízes..." can/do mean slightly different things in Portuguese but they can both be translated as "He asked the judges to look at his documents"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emeyr

I think that baarreth analyzed the distinction between the two sentences very well.

"Ele pediu aos juízes" = he asked them directly.

"Ele pediu que os juizes olhassem " = he asked that the judges look at the docs (indirectly through someone else.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/baarreth_old

I understand! Thank you for correcting me (before I get used to it!).

But sustaining jfb8's concern about the exactness of the phrases, now I would simply translate:

"Ele pediu aos juízes que olhassem seus documentos" = "He asked the judges to look at his documents"

"Ele pediu que os juízes olhassem seus documentos" = "He asked that the judges look at his documents" (I am not specifying whom I am asking).

And according to the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, in British English, we add a "should":

"Ele pediu que os juízes olhassem seus documentos" = "He asked that the judges should look at his documents"

It makes sense to me that "should look" in this context has the value of "olhassem". What do you think?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emeyr

Should look is usual in BrE and used as a substitute for the subjunctive form.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Michael238101

Agreed much better than the "Looked" suggested above. But I would also use the "American"? "look".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emeyr

Your second translation is what most people say.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jfb8

"Ele pediu aos juízes que olhassem seus documentos."

Translation: He asked that the judges look at his documents.

This is what I am seeing. Is it a correct translation as I would translate it back as "Ele pediu que os juízes olhassem seus documentos."? Thank-you for taking time to answer my (probably inane) questions.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emeyr

"Ele pediu aos juízes que..." is more formal than "Ele pediu que os juízes..." according to Whitlam's Modern Brazilian Portuguese.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JOHNRAINEY6

ele pediu que os juizes olhassem seus documentos Is this ok?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Paulenrique

Based on the English sentence, it is also right.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ari620077

He asked the judges TO look at his documents or He asked that the judges looked at his documents.

But "He asked that the judges look at his documents." doesnt make any sense to me

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