"זה לא תומך."

Translation:It does not support.

June 27, 2016

40 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

Is this an intransitive verb? I think in English this would need a direct object.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlmogL

I agree, תמך needs an indirect object with ב in Hebrew, this sentence sounds strange without context.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NaftaliFri1

Could be direct object as well


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlmogL

(formatting safeguard) תמך? With a direct object? Can you give an example? It doesn't seem right to me but maybe I'm forgetting something.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NaftaliFri1

זה לא תומך את הבית.

I guess it has more of a "holding up", or necessary support, meaning than regular "Support" meaning, which is only additional help.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

I realize this might be a stretch, but with many speakers of Hebrew also speakers of American English, could this then mean something like the American colloquial expression "that holds up," i.e. that is true, that is the case?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NaftaliFri1

We are ever learning


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jonathan126555

Thanks, Naftali. So if the context is engineering, this verb takes a direct object. And if the context is social, it takes an indirect object with -ב ? And the latter remains true in distinct senses such as "supporting a family" (providing them with food and shelter) and supporting a team (attending their games, cheering them on). Thanks for any help you can provide.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gotenks33

I've never heard the combination "תומך את" and I'm sure it's wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NaftaliFri1

James, If you mean by "holds up" to be self supportive, then no.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DanFendel

This is terrible as a sentence in English. The suggestion "it doesn't hold up" is probably the meaning I would give it if I heard it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mtthwf

I was wondering if this sentence had some idiomatic meaning that isn't apparent from this translation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TeribleT

Maybe: it's not a support. Although Google translated it differently: זה לא תמיכה. This isn't a support: זו לא תמיכה It doesn't support: זה לא תומך Not sure what the difference is though. I can see it used as: the program shows that it does not support. He tried to stand on the chair, but "it doesn't support" an adult male.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/5pamLik3

Oh!

Above, people have suggested that this might mean what we would say, idiomatically, as "That doesn't hold together." or "That won't work." or "That doesn't hold water.", or "That had no legs." (VERY idiomatic) using the 'engineering' metaphor of being self-supporting.

But you've suggested to me a very different English meaning which uses the 'social' metaphor and would be expressed idiomatically in English as something like: "That's not very supportive.", "That's unhelpful.", "That's cold comfort." or even, "That's no use.".

I wonder whether any -- or both -- of these senses corresponds to the Hebrew sentence. DuoLingo: you shouldn't be leaving us wondering!

"That doesn't support." is simply NOT an English sentence anyone would use without context.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

Brilliant! I couldn't think of any context in which the Hebrew sentence here would be even close to natural - but you nailed it down with "That's not supportive".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

What a mess. I wish they removed this example, which works neither in English nor in Hebrew.

Actually the Hebrew sentence has a meaning, with תומך a noun rather than a verb: supporter. So it can mean "this is not a supporter". But even so it's not easy to come up with a context where I'd say "זה לא תומך".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda118050

Why can't you say "This is not support" ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zdeka985336

"this is not a support" a support is a noun, is a verb "זה לא תומך" "תומך"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MeiraBatya1

But in American English we would absolutely say "this is not support", meaning you think you're helping me but you're not. Support in general, so no "a".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jonathan126555

Hello MeiraBatya, if תומך was the noun "support", then it would finally make sense of this strange sentence, but unfortunately the Hebrew for that noun is actually תמיכה (tmicha, the pa'al verbal noun for the root תמכ).

The letter sequence תומך can be a noun, as it happens, but then it means "supporter" rather than support.

So the Hebrew sentence could be construed as "That's not a supporter."

[in case you're wondering, I gave you an upvote to cancel out that unfair downvote]

[later edit: there are so many comments on this page because of the puzzling sentence that until a moment ago, I had never spotted YardenNB's comment from 2019, which had already pointed out that תומך can also mean "supporter".]


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MeiraBatya1

Thanks so much, Jonathan, for the clear answer and for your kindness


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jonathan126555

You're very welcome. I've just been reading the whole page of comments, and the best is by 5pamLik3, who realised that תומך can also be used as an adjective.

So תומך has at least three grammatical functions:

  1. present-tense verb, "support/supports"

  2. noun, "supporter"

  3. adjective, "supportive"

No. 3 is 5pamLik3's contribution, and yields the most convincing interpretation of the sentence: "That is not supportive".

I've checked (at the site Reverso) that professional Hebrew/English translators do actually use the word that way (where appropriate), and 5pamLik3 is definitely correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/drincade

While we Hebrew learners work on our Hebrew verbs, you guys really need to work on your English. It does not support is nonsensical. I put in "this is not supported". I think this is closest to what the sentence says.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jonathan126555

"This is not supported" is a phrase that occurs quite often these days in the field of software development, where a program or app has not been designed for a particular platform or operating system.

As you probably realised, the verb would then be the nif'al נתמך, but the whole phrase, as I discovered from my searches, is usually rendered as "זה אינו נתמך" - the formal negative is used here because the phrase appears in instruction manuals and the like, so the formal register would be expected.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JasonFries2

Just like in english this meaning would be a different form of the verb


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cicada.corazon

Could this translate to "this (or it) is not supportive" ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

I think it's one of the better translations (to the very unnatural Hebrew sentence).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wafflesfu

In the notes it said these verbs are transitive, but a lot of example they dont have direct object. In Hebrew, can you just take of the "it".

It doesnt support "it". Can it be implied?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SabrinaSoj

This does not make sense is an English sentence


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marcy735433

The English translation doesn't work


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marcy735433

English does not make sense


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SabrinaSoj

It needs a direct object


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SabrinaSoj

When did zeh or zot become it


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rona70s

I thought "this doesn't support " but it wasn't accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mab615805

Does the Hebrew meaning correspond to "It (or that) is not supporting?" I feel that one may say " He does not support", as a part in a dialog, the subject being a person, but when the subject is not a person, it feels like a word is lacking in the English translation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

Read the discussion above. This seem to be a rather meaningless sentence in Hebrew, though 5pamLik3 actually succeeded to find a reasonable meaning.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mtuJ4U
  • 1250

That is not a supportive sentence


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GrahaminVictoria

Why not "It is not supported"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jonathan126555

Because the pa'al verb here, תומך, is active, whereas your suggested translation has a passive construction.

The translation of your suggestion would be:

זה לא נתמך.

which uses the nif'al form to convey the passive.

There are a lot of comments on this sentence, but I encourage you to look over them for help. Since תומך can function adjectivally as "supportive", one possible translation of זה לא תומך that actually makes sense in English is "That is not supportive."

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