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https://www.duolingo.com/Larry_the_Zebra

with this, with that, with it... really such a big difference?

Larry_the_Zebra
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Hello, I have a question for advanced Dutch, not beginner Dutch.

Duolingo seems to insist that there is a huge difference between er-, hier- and daar- + preposition words (ermee, hiermee, daarmee, for example)

ermee = with it

hiermee = with this

daarmee = with that

I am not arguing these translations.

But the problem is, in English, very often the use of it, this and that (especially this and that) is HIGHLY subjective. Only in very literal cases where one is pointing to an object, or holding it, must one clearly use one and not the other. This for close things, that for things further away. However.....

Example of abstract use: The Tulip Craze. What do you know about it/this/that? I don't know much about it/this/that, I'm not good with this/that subject.

All of these options are correct in English when the situation is abstract.

My question: With the exception of words that are used with an idiomatic meaning (hierdoor/daarnaast for example) is the use of words like hiermee and daarmee (and ermee) also as subjective in Dutch as it is in English, and the choice of which to use mostly left up to the speaker? Or is there, as Duo is implying, always a 100%, strict application of 'this/that/it', EVEN in abstract contexts?

2 years ago

13 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/louis.vang
louis.vang
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with that: the object is not in the surroundings

whit this: it is nearby, maybe in your hands

With it: not in the surroundings, not nearby, more a general explication:

Met een boor kan je een gat boren, je kan ermee (met de boor) een gat boren.


Ik heb een mes in mijn handen, ik kan hiermee (very near, it can be in my hand) snijden.


Aan de overzijde zie je een boormachine, ik kan daarmee een gat boren.

The machine is at a distance .


Another meaning:

First i take two pieces of wood...

Ik neem eerst twee stukken hout, daarmee (met de twee stukken hout), kan ik een kruis maken. __ Other examples:

ER zijn veel honden in de wereld. (er zijn= expression)

Met de honden kan je gaan wandelen, je kan ERMEE gaan wandelen.

Een kam is een handig voorwerp, je kan DAARMEE (met de kam, with that) een hond kammen.


Dit is een houtboor, DAARMEE/HIERMEE kan je niet door ijzer boren.

daarmee: met een houtboor (one of all)

hiermee: met DEZE houtboor (only this)


Most of the time it is not exchangeable, sometimes hiermee / daarmee are exchangeable.


The use of this examples may to be different in some dialects, or in the Netherlands or in Belgium.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/El2theK
El2theK
Mod
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2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Nilfisq
Nilfisq
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Larry, your intuition is completely correct. It is as subjective as in English.
Quoting an example from Louis:

"Ik heb een mes in mijn handen, ik kan hiermee (very near, it can be in my hand) snijden."

It is perfectly okay to use "ermee" or "daarmee" instead, even when holding the knife in your hand. In this respect my explanation differs from Louis's. Both in Belgium and Holland "er-/hier-/daar-" are relatively interchangeable, as in English.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/louis.vang
louis.vang
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er / daar- mee can be interchangeable, but 'daar' is mostly more at a distance than 'ermee'.

Hiermee is mostly in the neighbourhead, not at a distance.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Nilfisq
Nilfisq
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Hi Louis. You are right of course but Larry's question was about the subjectivity of these concepts of distance

Maybe another example to illustrate this

Elke dag eet ik een reep chocola. Ik word er/hier/daar gelukkig van.

"Daar" has nothing to do with distance here. Maybe "hier" implies that you're showing the bar of chocolate while you're saying this.

"Hier" and "daar", therefore, refer to a syntactic location, i.e. the location in the sentence itself, not in the real world. Example:

De Engelsen hebben voor een Brexit gestemd. Echter, hier/daarover is het laatste woord nog niet gezegd.

"Hier/daarover" refers to a part of speech elsewhere in the text, in this case the whole previous sentence. Since "er" cannot be stressed, you need to rearrange the sentence if you would like to use "erover":

Echter, het laatste woord is er nog niet over gezegd.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Larry_the_Zebra
Larry_the_Zebra
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Louis, thank you for the long post and examples! They are helpful. But my question is not about literal, concrete situations. It is clear to me that hier- is close, and daar- is further away -- I am more referring to abstract situations. Such as with memories, or with things that are not present so you can't point to them. I understand from your examples, that er- or daar- would be used? For example: Hij heeft iemand vermoord. Het lijkt me, dat hij ermee/daarmee goed kan leven! Here I can't point to anything near or far. So would 'hiermee' work as well?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/louis.vang
louis.vang
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er/ daar ermee/daarmee are exchangeable.

'Hierbij' needs something you can point to

In 'taaltelefoon' they say that 'hiermee/hierdoor' is too formally and you should use er/daar - mee/door


http://www.taaltelefoon.be/woordgebruik-formele-woorden

Ook bijwoorden met als eerste deel hier zijn bij terugverwijzing formeler dan bijwoorden met er of daar als eerste deel.

Je spieren en botten blijven langer in conditie als je gezond eet. (not:Hierdoor , but) Daardoor blijf je langer fit.

Wat is afvalwater en wat doen we (not: hiermee, but) daarmee/ermee?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Larry_the_Zebra
Larry_the_Zebra
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Bart, once again, we are on the same wavelength! Bedankt dat je altijd mijn vraagjes heel goed begrijpt! :-)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/grey236
grey236
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This is kind of a dumb question, but what does mee mean? I've seen it but I thought met meant 'with'

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Larry_the_Zebra
Larry_the_Zebra
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Mee is what happens to 'met' when it joins with verb as a prefix or another preposition. For example: meespelen = to play with, or meekomen = to come (along) with. Met and mee can appear in the same sentence. Wil je met ons meekomen? = do you want to come (along) with us? Dans met me mee! = dance (together) with me! When met joins with another preposition, it also becomes 'mee', as in daarmee or ermee.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/grey236
grey236
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Is meedansen a verb? If so, then why is mee at the end of the sentence and not, "Meedans met me!"? I haven't really seen separable verbs as imperatives so I don't know what to do with the the preposition.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Larry_the_Zebra
Larry_the_Zebra
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Yes, any number of verbs can get a 'mee' prefix. Simply gives the feeling of 'together' to the main verb. More examples: meedoen, meegeven, meevaren, etc etc. Very practical! When the prefix comes off, it goes to the end of the sentence or clause (depending). With an imperative, too. Binnenkomen (to come in) = Komt u binnen! Weggaan (to go away) = Ga weg!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RJ_G
RJ_G
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That "er" lesson is driving me crazy too. Good question. And as a side note, how many words does a language need for "because"?!

2 years ago