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- "There is rarely snow in the …
"There is rarely snow in the morning."
Translation:Reggel ritkán van hó.
22 Comments
Just don't refer to "free word order" because it can give you the wrong impression that word order doesn't matter. It really matters. Eventually, some word orders mean the same, some are nonsensical and some hold different information.
Is "Ritkán reggel van hó" correct? Initially I wasn't going to ask this question because I do think "Reggel ritkán van hó" is better. However, after thinking a little I realised there might be a scenario where "ritkán" could be emphasised: There's rarely snow in the morning — from time to time maybe, but certainly rarely.
Yes, it does work, though you need the special scenario you mention. It should be accepted now.
Basically you are emphasizing snow. It is not a wrong approach though.
It feels very unstructured. I think the most important thing to notice here is ritkán. It's an adverb of frequency, to make it "worse", one with a negative nature (just like "rarely" to be honest). Therefore it almost acts like negation, it would be awkward to present a positive general setup like "hó van" when you want to say it's actually rarely the case. By the way, wouldn't it sound awkward in English as well? "It's actually the case rarely." I feel like it sounds the same kind of contradictory but I'm not a native after all.
222
When does the "van" come last or not? I was marked wrong for it here, but elsewhere I see "kívül hó van."
https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/23906912
Syntax doesn't determine word order, semantics does - more or less. Ritkán falls into a special semantic category as it conveys negative information and negative information is about mandatory to make the focus. https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/37684142
- 222
Thanks. The first link is very helpful; the second has my mind reeling, but I will try re-reading it a few more times! So, a clarification, based on my example above, I would say:
"Kívül hó van"... BUT "Kívül ritkán van hó" ?
The latter link is more like a cheat sheet for common words that take/refuse a certain position in the sentence almost dogmatically. (I'd add that most words that are said to be "never in focus" are more precisely "always in topic".)
And I don't understand the point you are trying to make. What exactly are we comparing? I only see two concrete, meaningful and perhaps common sentences.
"Kívül ritkán van hó" - "There is rarely snow outside" - so snow is mostly inside (are we talking about a fridge / freezer? :) )
"Kívül ritkán hó van" - "There is snow outside rarely(occasionally)."
So the place of "van" can go in multiple places, but it will modify the meaning.
With this lesson "Reggel ritkán hó van." is also a valid hungarian sentence but it means "yeah, occasionally we have snow in the morning" vs the original "oh, we are rarely ever getting snow in the morning". Does this make sense ?
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In answer to my question about why it was wrong to put the verb last here, but not in an earlier example, MrtonPolgr explained that it was because "ritkán" was negative (negating the "van"). Since I had seen "Kívül hó van" earlier, I asked if the van should be moved next to the "ritkán" in the latter sentence, based on his explanation (as well as the link he gave that listed such negative words).
