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"Azok a könyvek drágák, amelyek híresek."

Translation:Books that are famous are expensive.

July 3, 2016

41 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GerSzej

totally frustrating again!!!! here "those" is not accepted, exactly the same structure was used several times and sometimes "those" is rejected and sometimes "the" is rejected. Please review all these sentences and either accept both, or make the answers consistent.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ToddCorbin1

I wrote, "The books that are expensive are the famous ones." It marked it wrong, but it actually means exactly the same thing and is totally correct in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Makos24

Not the same. That would be:

A könyvek, amik drágák, azok a híresek. --> Azok a könyvek híresek, amik drágák. --> The books that are famous are expensive.

It is just switched. Both states that the books are expensive and famous but the matter is: which causes which?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Phozzonunnium

Is there a difference between amelyek and amik ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/96314081311257

Ami(k) is used when the corresponding question word is mi(k) or milyen(ek). (in English: what) Amely(ik)(ek) is used when the corresponding questions word is mely(ik)(ek)et. (in English: which)

Example:

(1) Mi drága? Ami híres.

(2) Milyen könyvek drágák? Amik híresek. (What books?)

(3) Melyik könyvek drágák? Amelyikek híresek. (Which books?)

In practise it means that whenever amely is correct, you could also use ami, but not the other way around.

Mindent megtettem, amit tudtam. (I did everything I could.) But not: *Mindent megtettem, amelyet tudtam. (Which did you do? <- That's nonsense.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hatcher

I don't think so.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JzquelThom

really struggling with word order here. "Those books are expensive, which are famous" is accepted, but nobody would ever say that. I don't get the context in which one would use this sentence in Hungarian.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeahLederm

I would feel the same but my parents spoke Hungarian so I heard it and it makes sense in the language. In english though it sonds so strange. I would probably say: "Those are the expensive books - the famous ones" or simply "Those famous books are the expensive ones"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Elloughton

I think this is very difficult if you are not a native English speaker; The sentence has to be rearranged, away from the Hungarian Topic...Focus construction, So.... "Those books which are famous are expensive" works well, and was accepted. I suggest writing these difficult sentences and their translation down for future reference; and try not to despair!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

Arcaeca, I don't recall seeing the inconsistencies you are complaining about. The "az/azok a/az" (double article) has always been translated (or should always be translated) as 'that' rather than 'the'.

Note, however, the difference between 'azok a drágák könyvek' and 'Azok a könyvek drágák'. The former is a sentence fragment meaning 'those expensive books'. The latter is a complete sentence meaning 'Those books are expensive'.

One clue to the difference is whether you see the adjective (here 'drágák) before or after the noun. Since in Hungarian attributive adjectives come before the noun, seeing 'drágák' after 'könyvek' here is a sure sign that there is a missing word 'is/are' needed for the English translation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeahLederm

dear ion1122 the first part of the sentence isn't the problem. we all understood that part. the second part creates the confusion. If a translation like " Those expensive books are famous" were eccepted we wouldn't have any problem. but it is not exactly what the Hungarian sentence meens .


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

Hi LeahLederm. A couple of points:

  1. Take a look at the comment from Arcaeca at the top of this page. It is the first part of the sentence that he is complaining about, not the second.

  2. As for your question, let's look at "Azok a könyvek drágák, amelyek híresek." Literally, this is: "Those books are expensive, that are famous." As a native English speaker, the only adjustment I need to make in order to translate this successfully is to adjust the word order. Specifically, I move the clause at the end (that are famous) to the position immediately after the word 'books': "Those books that are famous are expensive." This means the same as "Books that are famous are expensive" or even "Famous books are expensive."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeahLederm

Hello again and thanks for your response. As I mentioned before the frustrating part isn't the translation into English but the fact that the computer rejects perfectly good translations and accepts only specific forms even if it doesn't make sense to the English speaker. I agree with Elloughton who suggested, in this discussion, to write down the computer version and give it back the next time so that we can move ahead. It seems to have aggravated many people...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Arcaeca

Seriously, can we just decide whether "az(ok) a" at the beginning of a sentence like this means "the" or "that/those"? It's - rather unnecessarily - consistently inconsistently translated (see also the "azok a televiziok rosszak" sentence) and it's getting quite old, even for a Beta course.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ray.meredith

I agree, and I'm reporting these inconsistencies every time I see them.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zsuzsi97194

Are we trying to learn Hungarian here or English? If it's Hungarian then when we are asked to translate from Hungarian to English let's learn to use the English syntax, not a translated syntax. No one would say in English what we are told to say here. The real English translation is simpler: " Famous books are expensive."

96314081311257's explanation of Ami(k) etc below is great as a Hungarian lesson, and I really appreciate it because that I am trying to learn ENG ->HU and I need to get the differences between usages in Hungarian.

I think that there are a lot of people here who are trying to learn Hungarian that don't have a good grasp of English, so it is helpful we English speakers should correct strange English translations.I have been sending them in, but a year behind others who have been doing this for some time. When I see complaints from a year ago that we must be patient because the course is in Beta I think, what, still?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

I agree with you that we are here to learn Hungarian, not English. But for that reason, I'm willing to accept an awkward English translation if it illuminates the structure of the original Hungarian.

For example, in the translation here, the translation "Famous books are expensive" may be better English, but it does not spotlight the clause structure of the original Hungarian, as does "those books are expensive, that are famous."

That said, I have the feeling that the original Hungarian sentence here may also be strange Hungarian. I suspect that Hungarian too could directly say "Famous books are expensive", using simple adjectives and avoiding the clause structure.

In other words, I suspect the Hungarian here may be artificial, chosen to introduce us to the clause structure, but perhaps not what a Hungarian would really have to say in order to get his/her point across. Or am I mistaken?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PekoBodin

It is the famous books that are expensive?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeahLederm

It's a great translation. I don't know if the program accepts it. I don't remember where this specific sentence appears


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/clairelanc3

We can never be sure : azok a is sometimes translated by "the ones that/who" ,sometimes by "those ones that/which/who". Maybe BITH could be accepted?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/clairelanc3

I wrote "those/the" since Duolinguo seems to hesitate but it was still no good!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/clairelanc3

Could we translate : famous books are expensive"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

I believe the translation into Hungarian of your sentence would be: A híres könyvek drágák.

That is a different Hungarian sentence from the one we are given, even though they mean about the same thing.

True, your English sentence is more graceful than the DL English sentence. However, the DL English, although it is awkward, better illuminates the structure of the original Hungarian.

See the other comments on this page, including my earlier comments.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeahLederm

this reply is to iom1122 about the idea that "Hungarian here may be artificial, chosen to introduce us to the clause structure, but perhaps not what a Hungarian would say in real life." well my parents always spoke like that and if you have any Hungarian channel like Duna you'll be able to hear this structure all the time, I don't know if modern Hungarian has any adaptation and I doubt it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

Thank you, Leah. My comment was about this particular DL example, not the general approach to relative clauses used in Hungarian.

In other words, why would a Hungarian say "Azok a könyvek drágák, amelyek híresek = Those books are famous, that are expensive" when he/she could also say quite simply in Hungarian, "A híres könyvek drágák = "Famous book are expensive"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TeresaMari890533

I wrote: 'The books which are famous are expensive'. Why is it wrong?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JanBending

why was my answer 'the books which are famous are expensive ' not allowed. ?which and that are interchangeable as relative pronouns in english .


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JanBending

'The books which are expensive are the famous ones'- was rejected . Why ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TeresaMari890533

Amelyek means 'which', so 'amelyek hiresek' means 'which are famous'; so it means: Books which are famous are expensive. As for your earlier problem, I had it too. Maybe 'the' is unnecessary, at least according to the key.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Iva52893

"The books which are famous are expensive" was rejected, and I don't see why.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EsNkzo

The translation is wrong.

The proof is in Material Conditional in philosophy: If "Q then P" is correct, you CANNOT assume that "P then Q" is correct. E.g. if the road is wet after it rains, you cannot assume that it rained jus because the road is wet.

Lets assign: Q = famous P = expensive

The Hungarian says P then Q I.e. all expensive books are famous

The english says Q then P I.e. all famous books are expensive

These are different sentences with different meanings.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/orG8iU

jbg kad stalno daje drugaciji prevod


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/balpers

Why isn't this translated as: "Those books that are famous are expensive"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EsNkzo

This translation is incorrect.

The hungarian says "all expensive books are famous." The english says "all famous books are expensive."

These are NOT the same sentences.

Not only that, the correct translation is marked as "incorrect".

PLEASE revisit this lesson!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hosseintaj3

I think for the learners who are in the bigining new language it is better give a proper translation in a way that they can understand it and gradully make it profesenal.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeahLederm

you cant correct my english but my hungarian. the meaning is the same and the way i put it makes much sense in english. i get stuck and can't go forward because of that. its wrong


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/clairelanc3

The translation does not mean anything


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/belstar128

Cant they just put in some kind of way to tell me what order the words are in because im just having to guess


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MercedesEm13

We report inconsistencies are you call them, and then what.The weird sentences keep coming up time and again,giving us bad feeling and causing a waste of time.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MercedesEm13

Famous books are expensive.This is the correct translation in English.it is not proper English the translation given by Duo.They would fail as translators Whoi are the organisers of this bad course.,Do they KNOW English, do they bother to get a decent English speaker to check what they write?What a cheek , lack of knowledge and responsibility..Bad taste joke.

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