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  5. "ברווז זה ציפור?"

"ברווז זה ציפור?"

Translation:Is a duck a bird?

July 4, 2016

53 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CarolHatch1

Can this be read as "Is a drake a bird?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DalMaegil

I tried that, but it pronounced it as incorrect, even though I keep seeing the word as drake in other exercises.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/litara5

My question exactly


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, drake can be of couse translated as בַּרְוָז, but the opposition of בַּרְוָז to בַּרְוָזָה is weak, because the female form is seldom used and the main function of בַּרְוָז is to indicate the general species. As the sex of an animal does not influence the membership in the kingdom of birds, I would always read בַּרְוָז as duck here, but you are free to do otherwise, as there is no separate word for drake available.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Snommelp

sigh* I'll eventually remember not to translate זה as "that" in sentences like this...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/aha528145

What do you translate it as?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Isaac841110

it's used to compare two nouns right?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mxchana

Why are there two "vavs" in duck? Shouldn't it be spelled simply ברוז?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DennisMosesG

Two vavs are used often as to not make is a vowel. One vav can sound like o or u, usually.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

The rules of writing without niqqud are that when a vav stands for /v/ sound (as opposed to /o/ or /u/), two vavs are written, unless at the end of the word where it's one vav but that is rare anyway.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dan224079

The general rule is there are words that has silent letters to differentiate between another similar word.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rich739183

With nikud, it's

בַּרְוָז

2020-11-23 rich739183


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alinarj7

I'm not totally sure about this but I think it's pronounced barvoz not just baroz


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GTCorey

Is there a reason you say "?ברווז זה ציפור" instead of "?ברווז היא ציפור"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Walrosse

They are both correct, but "ברווז" is a masculine noun so you would have to say: "ברווז הוא ציפור".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jayantshaq

Shouldn't you also have to say בדווז זאת ציפור rather than ברווז זה ציפור since ציפור is a feminine noun? Do correct me if I am wrong in either the gender of ציפור or the usage of זה/זאת.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, in sentences like this uninflected זֶה should be possible: הֵרָיוֹן זֶה לֹא מַחֲלָה pregnancy (masc.sing.) is not a disease (fem.sing.) or דִּבּוּרִים זֶה לֹא מַעֲשִׂים words are not deeds. Lewis Glinert (§18.2.4 of The Grammar of Modern Hebrew) writes: "זֶה ... agrees for gender, not number - but usually with its predicate, not its subject; and where the subject is generic, זֶה tends to be uninflected". PS: Yes, you are right, bird is feminine in Hebrew: צִפּוֹר קְטַנָּה a little birdie


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BeCreative__

So, the literal translation is

A duck, this, a bird?

How come 'this' can be translated as a bird to be.

I am aware that

ברווז האו ציפור

makes sense, especially with my knowledge of arabic. But why זה can be the be the verb to be (is) is confusing to me. I would appreciate an explanation


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TobyBartels

The copula (‘is’) is left out. So think of it as ‘A duck: is it a bird?’.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

I'm a native Hebrew speaker and a very amateur linguist, and I can't easily think of an explanation. It is a fact, though: זה seems to be capable of replacing הוא as a copula under some conditions (from a quick thought, the thing after it must be a noun or a pronoun or a noun phrase, but not an adjective; an adjective would still require "הוא"). I'll bet, though not confidently, that it didn't exist 100 years ago, and 60 years ago it would have been considered colloquial.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, my impression is, that using זה in purely declarative sentences like דְּבָרִים זֶה לֹא מַעַשִׂים words are not deeds sound casual, but are quite established in higher style in definitions, i.e, when you specify that A is B, like here: What is the definition of a duck? Well, a duck is determined by being a bird!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jad498154

No no. It is: A duck, is this a bird? ברוז, זה ציפור?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jad498154

So זה is in agreement with the bird


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

No, צִפּוֹר bird is a feminine noun in Hebrew and does not agree with זֶה.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dieprinzessin

Another one of those... ציפור is feminin. זה/זאת agrees with the second part of the copula (unlike היא/הוא). So it should be either: ברווז זאת ציפור. or ברווז הוא ציפור.

(This is based on various discussions about this topic here)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

I'm not sure which discussions concluded that זה/זאת agrees with the second part. For what it's worth, I think that ברווז הוא ציפור is the most natural, ברווז זה ציפור slightly less but OK, ברווז זאת ציפור not natural at all.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, in one discussion thread I cited L. Glinert §18.2.4: In declarative clauses, copula זֶה is strictly casual. It agrees in gender, not number - but usually with its predicate, not its subject. Example: הַבַּ֫יִת שֶׁלְּךָ זֹאת דֻּגְמָה טוֹבָה your house it a good example.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

Sounds to me distinctly less natural than הבית שלך זה דוגמה טובה. But I feared that my judgement is already tainted by over-thinking it. So I hust asked my wife (also a native speaker). She instinctively preferred זאת. Then we both mulled it over (she agreed with me that using הוא/היא is better and more natural anyway), and then she preferred ברווז זה ציפור over ברווז זאת ציפור (with her back to the wall, because she now disliked both).

So in short, this is a slippery spot of Hebrew. I wouldn't even trust a linguist's opinion here, if it's based on introspection. I would only trust a research that actually went to the street and asked a good sample of Hebrew speakers - or better yet, analyzed a corpus of spontaneous speaking and writing.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Geraldine1610

I thought ברווז is pronounced as barvoz and not barvaz?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, no, it is בַּרְוָז. The doubled waw expresses the consonant, not a rounded vowel.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ArmanMoeen

Why not "is this bird a duck?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Snommelp

I believe that would be

הציפור הזה ברווז?

Different word order, and also note the definite!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Snommelp

sigh* trying to type in two languages in a single post always screws up the formatting for me...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

הציפור הזו היא ברווז?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/edeet

originally you write ברווז with only one vav, so you shouldn't mark it as a typo. Unless you dont accept כתיב חסר. in this case you can't accept כל it has to be כול


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

I would also expect Duo to accept it, since many Israelis would write it this way, but to be strict, the rules of כתיב לא מנוקד require two vav's, and require כל without vav if followed by a noun or a noun pharse (and it's always followed by a noun or a noun phrase, except in some set phrases such as חוסר כול). That's the best of my knowledge.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ReyMarlies

I still do not know in which situation I have to use (et ha)and when it is not correct


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Briana539159

I am also learning, but (et ha) is used when the object has a definite article ("the" in English, "ha" in Hebrew) as opposed to an indefinite article ("a" in English, but Hebrew has no definite article). Since this is "a bird" et ha is not necessary.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/baruch60610

Why can't I say "drake"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ReyMarlies

Why drake is wrong. It says ברווז the male form, not the female


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ReyMarlies

סליחה ברווז is a drake not a duck


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, in English you have names for the female, male and the general name for the species, like stallion, mare, horse. Hebrew works like tiger, tigresse, tiger, i.e. has a special female form, but uses the masculine form also for the species. For some animals there is only a special male form in English like a male falcon is a tiercel. But if I see בַּז in a Hebrew text, I would normally assume it to be a falcon, and not more specially a tiercel. The same with בַּרְוָז: Usually generically a duck, but it can be a male drake.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tatiana904094

ברווז Drake правильный перевод


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JulianoADM

What is pronunced it ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ReyMarlies

Why is it not correct to say " A dark is a bird?" A dark is a mal and a duck is a female animal


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mari377377

... Asks Duo, the uncultured BIRD.

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