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"Igen, a titkárnő bent van."

Translation:Yes, the secretary is inside.

2 years ago

45 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/mariamaethger

Just to make sure I got this right: Is titkárnő a female secratary? The male secretary is titkár?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hrembleton

I reckon this should be changed, or at least have 'female' in brackets next to the translation - as it is, the assumption is that secretaries are always female. Time to stop assigning jobs to different genders.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/fmk64
fmk64
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Do you mean that this Hungarian sentence should be translated as 'Yes, the female secretary is in.' ?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/fmk64
fmk64
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Fair enough, sometimes this is very annoying. I remember that I terminated my subscription to a newspaper, which used 'postáskisasszony' (approx.: post-missy) for an actual female clerk in an article. The same article disclosed that the lady was actually a mother of two!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hrembleton

No, I'm talking more about when you hover over the word to get the translation. Both 'titkárnő' and 'óvónő' are clearly being marked as female (which in itself is obviously a whole other argument about the woman being other, in many languages). When you hover over these words, however, the translations simply read 'secretary' and 'kindergarten teacher', as if these roles could only be female. On the other hand, words like 'művésznő' are translated as '(female) artist/artist'. Whether those roles are more likely to be taken on by women or not, it's just unhelpful in terms of equality to assign those nurturing and subservient roles to the female gender. Love that you unsubscribed to a newspaper for that language - good on you!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/fmk64
fmk64
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One (e.g., I) can claim that the presence of words like 'titkárnő', 'óvónő', 'ápolónő', 'postáskisasszony', etc. and their equivalents in a language may reflect the cultural state of a society using that language - but, at least for the time being it is a fact of life that these words exist in the language, and those willing to learn it - however thought-provoking it might be - are faced with the task of interpreting these words in a different language.

There are other examples as well. Many years ago I was fascinated how enthusiastically and successfully the Finns coined new words for entities of the rapidly developing information technology - which I took as a sign of the importance of their cultural identity.

Sorry for this possibly redundant extension of a language course.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/fmk64
fmk64
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Ohh. For some reason I thought you meant 'hovering over a word' figuratively... that's why the looong argument. Sorry. I've corrected the hint for 'titkárnő' to '(female) secretary'. And thanks!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/fmk64
fmk64
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Right - I fully understand this and I even agree with you. But, let me hover just over the word now. Our original endeavour was to translate the Hungarian sentence with the word 'titkárnő' into the English equivalent, not the other way round. Would you really use 'female secretary' in an English translation?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hrembleton

Yeah, nice that we're on the same page. I agree that you wouldn't translate it like that, which is why I'd put the information where you hover over the word. That way, it would be clear to the language learner that the noun has been rendered feminine, as is the case for all the other feminised nouns - i.e. by displaying the text '(female) secretary' when you hover over the word, just as you see '(female) artist' etc. Otherwise, given the discrepancy in Duolingo's approach, one might suspect their team of assuming that all secretaries and pre-school teachers are female. It's also useful from a language learner's point of view to have the feminisation of the noun called to our attention.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jAdinegoro
jAdinegoro
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You might want to consider the word nő, in there every after the root word, before make fun of yourself

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Shamarth
Shamarth
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Exactly.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HeruMornie
HeruMornie
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I confirm ;)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jAdinegoro
jAdinegoro
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Or perhaps titkárferfi :D

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/pingo.il
pingo.il
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That's one of the most interesting discussions I have read on Duolingo. Kudos, guys (inc. girls)!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/VioletteNoire
VioletteNoire
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Can 'van' be dropped here?

I mean can you say: "Igen, a titkárnő bent"?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hatcher
hatcher
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No, you can't.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey
vvsey
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Let's try to make up a rule:
For the the third person only:

with an adjective, we don't use "van"/"vannak"

with other stuff, like with locations, etc., we do use "van"/"vannak"

And this is NOT optional, this is how it has to be. Until proven otherwise.

So:

"A titkárnő bent van" - is in
"A titkárnő okos" - is smart
"A titkárnő fáradt" - is tired
"A titkárnő otthon van" - is at home

Others:

"A híd hosszú" - the bridge is long
"A folyó széles" - the river is wide
"A Párizsi Udvar szép" - is beautiful
"A Párizsi Udvar zárva" - is closed

Oops, I just found an exception. When something, like a shop or a museum, etc., is open or closed, you can say it with or without "van":

"A múzeum zárva" - The museum is closed
"A múzeum zárva van" - The museum is closed
"Az üzlet nyitva" - The store is open
"Az üzlet nyitva van" - The store is open

I wonder if there are other optional cases.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hatcher
hatcher
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I don't know about you but "a múzeum zárva" and "az üzlet nyitva" are not the most natural way for me. I would use "van" there. I could liken it to the newspaper grammar in English. I can imagine seeing them on a sign but I don't think people would really say them that way.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey
vvsey
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We all say unnatural things sometimes :) And there are personal habits and preferences, and style. We all speak our personal versions of any language. That's the beauty of it. And that's why it is optional, not forbidden or required. :)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/fmk64
fmk64
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I believe that the 'A múzeum zárva' is not spoken language at all - we find it in written announcements or in news headlines. And on the other way round: it would appear unnatural for me to see a announcement on the board saying 'A múzeum zárva van'. What do you think?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey
vvsey
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Ajtók, ablakok zárva, villany kikapcsolva, házi feladat kész, tyúkok megetetve, bőröndök bepakolva, indulhatunk! :) We are taking the van!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HeruMornie
HeruMornie
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Same for me, I use them both, depending on the circumstances and context.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey
vvsey
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I would say it is totally optional. Personal preference.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hatcher
hatcher
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Oh and by the way, that's the passive voice, so it's easy to identify.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey
vvsey
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Very good point!

So, that's the past participle in English, if I am not mistaken. The third form of a verb. Things like "is done", "is closed", "is finished" "is arranged".

These would be translated with "van" most of the time. But sometimes the "van" can be omitted. Most frequently with "closed" and "open".

For example: it is a beautiful Sunday afternoon, and you run out of bread. Mom sends you to the corner store to get some. You return empty handed. Mom asks "What happened, where is the bread?" (she is practicing her English). You reply "Zárva a bolt" ("the store is closed").
No problem with that at all.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HeruMornie
HeruMornie
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fmk64: it is correct both ways, and frequently used, too. You may find it unnatural, but I think it is more like a personal preference, and it also may depending on the context. "Zárva a bolt", "Zárva van a bolt", "A bolt zárva van", "Zárva vannak", "bezártak" are all natural in the appropriate situations. It also may differ in different places, as some usage may sound strange in one town that is most natural in the other. I think it is useful to learn the "Zárva a bolt" form, because who knows it, they will easily recognize in its more verbose forms. Especially if they know that we omit the "van" in certain cases. ;)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/fmk64
fmk64
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'Zárva a bolt' in spoken language is not natural to me (perhaps from a 5-year-old in your example). 'Zárva vannak', 'A bolt zárva van' would sound better.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hatcher
hatcher
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"zárva a bolt" on the other hand is natural without "van"

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/norveeg
norveeg
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i might be wrong, but i think it is beacuse "zárva" and "nyitva" are not adjectives but adverbs

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey
vvsey
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That's exactly true. They are not adjectives. So we use them with "van". But they are very special, so we can occasionally omit the "van".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HeruMornie
HeruMornie
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It is a very speciality of Hungary (let's say a Hungaricum) that we have very strict rules without exceptions except some exceptions we have. It is not a linguistic problem but a general thing with being Hungarian :) Even the most equals are more equal than others except some equals that are not. Or something like that—Orwell's on the power of six.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/medeor

maybe in permanent cases you don't use van? i actually liked this explanation: http://www.hungarianreference.com/Van-is-exists-omitting.aspx

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey
vvsey
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Yeah, it is not bad. I am not sure what you mean by permanent cases though.

We can make this very simple, because the only important part is when you must omit "van", as compared to English.
When you describe what something is (using a noun) or what it is like (adjective), you can NOT use "van". It is implied:

Éva is a nurse - Éva (egy) nővér. - (noun)
Éva is tired - Éva fáradt - (adjective)

In any other case you use "van". (It is either mandatory or optional, but don't worry about it for now).

Éva is at home - Éva otthon van.
Éva is well - Éva jól van.
The store is closed - Az üzlet zárva van.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/joeTatt1
joeTatt1
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English and Hungarian have no grammatical gender so it is always more problematic to express the sex of a particular person doing a particular job than say in French or Italian, where le/il or la can used or essa etc added to the end of the word. Mostly the choice of words is just convention based on the sex of the usual person doing the job. In English "secretary" does not express the sex of the person, but in Hungarian it does. However in Hungarian sometimes the opposite is true eg postás is post / mailman. Other examples in English are dinner/lunch lady, fisherman or bin man (waste collector). The other consideration is I suspect that gender identity politics has not become so disruptive to social harmony as in the US and West Europe.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Frisskakas

You are wrong. In Hungarian it's possible to say titkárnő, but it's equally correct to refer to a female secretary as titkár.

lunch lady -- food server

fisherman -- angler

bin man -- sanitation worker

In both languages there is an OPTION to refer to gender, not a directive to do so. How you use the language is up to you. Duolingo is not trying to teach you gender politics, just the words and how they are used, and the many ways in which they can be used. Everything else is up to you.

10 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Frisskakas

Wow you people have too much time on your hands. Let me point out that if you refuse to learn the suffixes, you may as well not bother to learn Hungarian. There is no value judgement in learning words. It's how you will use them that matters. Example: if you don't know the word "whore" then you won't understand when someone insults you with it. And therefore, you are not fluent. Choose your goal: fluency or crusade.

You may as well go argue with French because bread is male, and meat is female.

10 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ShawnSuth
ShawnSuth
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I've heard Hungarians say that "titkárnő" is a bit old-fashioned -- perhaps this should replaced with "asszisztens"?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HeruMornie
HeruMornie
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I don't think so. It may be true over a level, but 'titkárnő' is still used, and in some cases 'asszisztens' may considered as overstatement. On the other hand, some health care employees are called "asszisztens", especially when they have no qualification (yet). The usage of these terms is in change right now.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mick-Shen

That is usually not said in English. The secretary "inside" means, she is inside a box or confined physically. A good secretary is in the office, or is there before the boss arrives.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Pok
Pok
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And s/he (to avoid bias) bent a van as well I suppose? ;)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HeruMornie
HeruMornie
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Could you explain what do you mean in more deails please? Bending a van needs lots of force or really silly driving. ;)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Pok
Pok
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Just literally saying that a titkarno actually bent a van ;)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HeruMornie
HeruMornie
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"Pimp my ride" on steroids :D

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey
vvsey
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"bent van", not "bent a van"

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey
vvsey
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"bent van", not "bent a van"

8 months ago