"Nothing helps except for this book."

Translation:שום דבר לא עוזר מלבד הספר הזה.

July 6, 2016

66 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tngraham

Weird that the "correct" answer is שום דבר, whereas the choices given in the multiple choice exercise do not include that option, but only כלום.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rpolsky

Is "melvad" the more accepted term instead of "chutz"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Pumbush

Milvad is more formal. The two are actually not the same, but native people usually use them the same.

Milvad "adds things":

מלבד הספר הזה, הבאתי גם את ספר העברית

Chutz "reduces things" (usually will come with the word Lo):

"לא הבאתי ספרים חוץ מהספר הזה"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DanFendel

That's an interesting distinction. Thank you.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

Here’s a translation of what Pumbush wrote. Milvad ha-sefer haze, haveti gam et sefer ha-ivrit. Besides this book, I also brought a Hebrew book.

Lo heveti sfarim khutz me-ha-sefer haze. I didn’t bring any books except this book.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mgrdAT
  • 1093

thanks for explaining the (theoretical) difference between חוץ מ and מלבד. How does למעט fit in?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

Same semantics as far as most Hebrew speakers know (I wasn't aware of the theoretical difference Pumbush mentions, so don't know). It's formal, much like מלבד.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TomTendroc

Why no את? Seems like they just randomly pick when it's needed and when it's not.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JasonFries2

There is no object in this sentence. "The book" acts as another subject


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SophiaTrou1

Why 2 negatives? שום דבר = nothing


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/radagastthebrown

Because that's how you say it in Hebrew.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eve338479

For fun, I asked Google Translate to translate "nothing will not help except this book". Same result. Then I tried "no one will help you" and "no one will not help you". Both = "אף אחד לא יעזור לך"

If you want to say nothing or no one will not (do something), is it better to start from there is "nothing which", or "no one who" ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MargaretDu3

It's the same in Russian. We use double negatives, like, nothing does not help and it kind of intensifies the emotion in it


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Its-me.

Is there a difference in meaning between שום דבר לא עוזר and כולם לא עוזא?

Is there any reason to use one over the other in difference circumstances?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

Assuming you mean כלום לא עוזר, I believe there isn't the tiniest nuance of difference in meaning or usage - a rare example of perfect interchangeability (-:


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

shum davár lo ozér milvád ha-séfer ha-ze.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Yosef989163

I have seen many examples where the word לא can be omitted, e.g., הוא עוסה כלום and הוא לא עוסה כלום appear to be interchangeable. Why aren't כלום עוזר and כלום לא עוזר interchangeable?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/radagastthebrown

Both הוא עושה כלום and כלום עוזר are incorrect. You have to use לא.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SighingDutchman

I don't understand why the word "כולם" is listed in the words to choose from, but the word "כלום" is the word needed. And why I seem to be the only one noticing this. By the way;

I believe you meant to write "עושה", not "עוסה",, in your example, correct? (עושה = "To do").


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ThomBoye

I can't call up the exercise, but I believe the answer is: שום דבר as opposed to כלום

Again, I can’t view the word bank, though

It sounds like they may have thrown כולם in to suggest the possibility it might be כלום

It seems they sometimes throw in things like that to make us look closer and harder (*one critique of Duolingo is that learners learn to see the word and not the letters)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/aquababies

What's the difference between כזה and הזה?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

Well, כזה is "like this" and הזה is "this".

x אני רוצה ספר כזה - I want a book like this (or I want such a book)

x אני רוצה את הספר הזה - I want this book


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tim5602

מה ההבדל בין 'כלום' ל'שום דבר'? או הם אותו הדבר?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BartiBar

שתי המילים לגמרי זהות. אתה יכול להשתמש בשתיהן.

Both words are totally identical. You can use either.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tim5602

תודה רבה על ההסבר הזה!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BartiBar

*תודה רבה על ההסבר (=

בשמחה!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tim5602

אוקיי, שיניתי את זה! :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DiscipulusKiwius

In case you are interested, there is also the emphatic 'שום-כלום'

By the way. Although 'כלום' is used these days to mean 'nothing', its original exact meaning is 'a very small amount.'

This is also why 'שום-כלום' works completely well.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

Right, but also שום originally meant "something" or "a small amount"...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/amir638682

Hebrew is one of the most beautiful language in the world.... It should be easier for learning around the world...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CherryDT

Why is this not correct? לא עוזר כלום חוץ מהספר הזה


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/radagastthebrown

Should be OK, though it's more natural to put כלום in the beginning, i.e. "כלום לא עוזר חוץ מהספר הזה".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JimCopelan1

Wait why is שום דבר לא עוזר הלבד הספר האלה wrong?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/radagastthebrown

ll האלה is for plural nouns, הזה should be used here (singular masculine).

Also, you have a typo (מלבד, not הלבד).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TeribleT

Why can't you write: שום דבר עוזר לא....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/radagastthebrown

The order is wrong - לא comes before the verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TeribleT

Thank you! Is this always a rule or are there exceptions?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/radagastthebrown

I can't think of an exception. When the לא negates the verb it always comes before.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rhonda859305

Does "milvad" (based on the above I gather that's the correct pronunciation) mean that you don't have to use "et" before "hasefer ha-ze?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Yosef989163

The meaning is hasefer haze ozer. You don't put et before the subject.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TeribleT

We were told it had to be put when you add hey to the noun, if you're going to add a preposition, or this/haze. As in "this book" What do you mean you don't put it before the subject? הגבר לובש את הנעל הזאת. Requires it. So why doesn't this sentence?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/radagastthebrown

It's not equivalent; "except this book" is not an object - if anything it's closer to being the subject. You don't help the book, the book helps you.

Other than that, even if it were an object, לעזור comes with the preposition -ל, and so you wouldn't use את. For example,

Besides dad, mom also helped me = חוץ מלאבא, אמא גם עזרה לי

Notice the -ל after the -מ in מלאבא. And finally, when -חוץ מ is used, את is not necessary, and many times dropped:

Besides this shirt, the man also wears these pants = חוץ מהחולצה הזאת, הגבר גם לובש את המכנסיים האלה or חוץ מאת החולצה הזאת, הגבר גם לובש את המכנסיים האלה

Also a small correction - הגבר נועל את הנעל הזאת


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/radagastthebrown

I don't see how את fits here, with מלבד or without. What's the sentence you thought of without the את?

In general, it is possible to have "...מלבד את".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TeribleT

Radagast, as a direct object before "this book"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IrinaPerem

Can אף דבר be used instead of שום דבר? In the Tips section they said they were interchangeable, but my answer was marked as mistake.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

They're not entirely interchangeable. אף אחד is just a fixed expression, and שום דבר is, too (שום אחד is never used, and אף דבר is quite rare). With more specific object you can use them interchangeably. For example: אף כיסא; שום כיסא.

(comment copied from AmirLFC from a different thread)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RachelRose590703

Why do you need to use the לא after שום דבר if the negative is already implied in the "nothing"? Thanks


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

Hebrew, like many other languages uses so called "double negative". That's just how the language works.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Larry824711

DL should also accept "שום דבר לא עוזר חוץ מי הספר הזה."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

Not the way you wrote it. However שום דבר לא עוזר חוץ מהספר הזה is correct and accepted, as far as I can remember.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VidAdler

why milvad and not chutz? אין שום דבר עוזר חוץ מספר הזה


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

Well חוץ מ is accepted, but you made another mistake. There is no אין here. שום דבר לא עוזר חוץ מהספר הזה. Note also that you need the ה in מהספר, because the book is definite.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/abstracam

What would the contex be here?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

I used to have trouble getting to sleep. I have tried listening to music, running before going to be, but in the end it turned out all I needed to do is read a bit before bed. But not any book. This book. Nothing helps except for this book!

But, seriously. There doesn't need to be a context. This sentence, like most on Duo, are about teaching us the mechanics of the language. So, you can replace the word "book" with any other book and you know how to say that in Hebrew.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RachelRose590703

I think Duolingo needs to double check the spelling of their word offerings. I knew that they meant "כלום", but the word offered was "כולם" and I received the message that I had a typo in my answer. Really?? I don't think so little owl!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

It looks like they included כולם in order to confuse people. I bet there was also שום דבר among the word blocks, which would have been one of the correct answers.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ThomBoye

From now on, I'm going to say this about my Tanach....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/enorby

Why is it הספר הזה, instead of הזה הספר?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

Because הזה הספר is incorrect. It's always הספר הזה, because adjectives always follow the noun they modify. זה isn't really an adjective, but its function here is basically like an adjective.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Miriam805316

They say correct answer is כלום Only similar choice is כולם


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

It looks like they included כולם in order to confuse people. I bet there was also שום דבר among the word blocks, which would have been one of the correct answers.

Learn Hebrew in just 5 minutes a day. For free.