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https://www.duolingo.com/FenAshburn

Question about cxial.

If you wanted to say, "I have every reason to love you," would you use 'cxial' at all in the sentence? I keep thinking that using 'cxial' would make it more like, "I love you for every reason" which might be the same in meaning, but not quite the poetic structure I'm looking for...

Cxial, mi amas vin. (?)

So would it be better to say,

Mi havas cxiun motivon ami vi. (?)

(As always, please correct my mistakes!)

Long story short, I want to trick my husband into learning Esperanto by leaving notes for him. XD

2 years ago

22 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/salivanto
salivanto
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This one is a little tricky. The systematic nature of the table-words makes it possible to imagine all sorts of words which are rarely if ever used in practice. I also think that "I have every reason" is an idiom in English and would not be translated literally in other languages. (Native speakers of other languages, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

There was some discussion of similar words here: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/9778366

I'm having trouble finding it at the moment, but one thing that came up in the course is that there is a possible (but rarely used) formation in Esperanto... I hate to commit to it without finding the source ... but it was along the lines of using "cxiel" to mean "in all events" - something like "cxiel vi devas flugi" meaning "all the possible manners in which you do it will involve flying." If that's right, then "cxial mi amas vin" could mean "what ever the reason, I love you" -- that is, even if my reasons change, I do and always will love you.

I would find a different wording.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FenAshburn

Thank you for that explanation! If you do find the source, I'd be interested to read it. Is there also a good source for Esperanto idioms? I would definitely enjoy learning those.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Christa627

Well, there's the Great Fount of All Knowledge... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto_vocabulary#Idioms_and_slang But that article is missing the word "kabei": to leave the Esperanto movement, after having been active in it. https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabei And also assorted variants of "krokodili": https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptiliumi Those last two articles are in Esperanto; I don't know what your level is for reading that.

Neniam krokodilu nek parolu volapukajxon, kaj vi fartos bone ;-).

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/salivanto
salivanto
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Fun fact, the Esperanto word for "idiom" is "idiotismo" and sounds a lot like the word "idioto" which means "idiot." (It really does mean "idiom" and not "idiot-ism".

So would "krokodili" and "kabei" be idioms or slang? I'm tempted to say that both of these are both just words. Well, I suppose you could argue that "krokodili" is a special meaning assigned to the root "krokodil-" and therefore is an idiom, but "kabei" is just a word. It may have an eponymous etymology, but that doesn't make it an idiom. (BTW, hows that for some affected alliteration?)

I am embarrassed to admit that I was getting stuck on explaining the difference between aligatori and kajmani - the two members of the reptile family with any possible utility other than the obvious krokodili - so I'm going to follow that link and take a refresher.

P.S. For reasons that I don't quite understand, I'm sometimes quoted as an expert on volapukajxoj - look it up. :-)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Christa627

I guess I thought of "kabei" as idiomatic because it's so connected to Esperanto culture and there isn't an equivalent in any other language that I know of. But you're right, it is just a word. A cool one to know, though.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/salivanto
salivanto
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Note that "kabei" means to quietly leave and never come back. You'll see all sorts of people making noise about leaving Esperanto. To me, that's not kabeado.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/salivanto
salivanto
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The "source" I was thinking of in my previous post was a sentence on Duolingo. I am still unable to find it. I suspect it has been removed based on the conversation that generated my comment. It was a troublesome sentence, for sure, but it pointed out the (perhaps historic) oddity of Esperanto that was unknown to several fluent speakers, including myself.

The sentence was: - "Ĉiel vi devos flugi = in any case, you will have to fly."

For those in the duolingo FB group, here's the discussion about the sentence. https://www.facebook.com/groups/duolingo.esperanto.learners/permalink/546245825537439/

For those not in the group (or who can't be bothered) the summary is that PIV lists a similar sentence "ĉiel vi devos pagi" and explains that in this context, "ĉiel" can be understood to mean "en ĉiu rilato, laŭ ĉiu supozo" -- "according to every supposition, you will have to fly" seems to justify "in any case, you'll have to fly" -- although ultimately, several fluent speakers agreed that nobody would understand the sentence this way.

Tying it back to your original question, I was possibly pushing the limits too far when I suggested that someone might understand "ĉial" with an analogy to this obscure meaning of "ĉiel" - but that's the point. Ĉial is such a rare word that it's hard to find examples to illustrate how to use it. One classic illustration is "tio estas ĉial konsilinda." - but what does that even mean? It's worth doing for every reason - including cleaning your teeth and getting revenge on the kid who called you doo-doo-face 40 years ago? Seriously, I don't get it.

Checking the Tekstaro for examples, I find one. This, from the Fundamento

  • Aldonante la literon “ĉ”, ni ricevas vortojn komunajn: ĉia, ĉial, ĉiam, ĉie, ĉiel, ĉies, ĉio, ĉiom, ĉiu.

Now, that didn't help.

My advice - use different words and not ĉial - and for "in any event" use "ĉiuokaze", not "ĉiel".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Christa627

Yeah, that's a very obscure use. I'm not sure what the source source is (PIV sentences come from somewhere), but I would understand "ĉiel vi devas pagi" as meaning that you must pay by cash, and check, and debit card, and credit card, and PayPal, and whatever other manner of payment you can think of (kiel mi devas pagi? ĉiel.), a very odd situation I'm sure. Maybe context clarifies it somehow, but I am quite sure "ĉiuokaze" would be a better choice, and certainly advisable to anyone speaking E-o today.

Now, as to what is meant by "forr every reason", I understand it as "for every relevant reason", or as my Lojbanist friends would say, "for every reason in the universe of discourse". I mean, aren't all the ĉi-words that way to some extent? If I say "mia frato manğas ćion" (sorry about the diacritics, my phone's software keyboard stopped working mid-post, so now I'm making do with the hardware one), do I mean that my brother eats every thing that exists in the universe? No, I mean that he eats everything edible that he can get. But then, that sentence is probably meant as a bit of an exaggeration anyway. But I still understand ćial and ćiel to mean respectively "for every relevant reason" and "in every relevant way", otherwise they become fairly meaningless.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/salivanto
salivanto
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Actually, that's my whole point. Some of these words really are essentially meaningless - or at least so incredibly rare so as not to be worth bothering with at this stage of learning. Just because "cxial" can be constructed in the table doesn't mean it needs to be taught in Esperanto 101.

I do think there's a big difference between the one hand : "mia frato mangxas cxion" - where the listener can reasonably be expected to include that we're limiting the discussions to edible things, or at least things that the average person might admit at least border on edibility -- and the other hand: "tio estas ĉial konsilinda" where there is no limiting expectation. (Indeed, if the person being advised knew what the reasons were, he probably wouldn't need advice!)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JanPaulido
JanPaulido
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I think you would say " Mi havas cxial ( por ) ami vin " , the correlatives are my weak point in what i am learning but , ĉial means " every reason " right so this literally means " i have every reason ( for ) to love you . Hope that helps

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Christa627

Well, "cxial" isn't a noun, it functions as an adverb, so I don't think you can "havi" it. "Mi havas cxial ami vin" would mean something like "I have, for every reason, love you", which doesn't make much sense (especially since "havi" does not mean "have to" referring to duty, or "have" indicating a past action). There is a word "kialo" for "reason", it's structurally odd IMO but everybody uses it: "Mi havas cxiun kialon ami vin". I'd say "Mi amas vin cxial" or "Mi havas cxiun motivon/kialon ami vin".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/salivanto
salivanto
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Someone needs to give this answer 20 lingots. I'll start with 2.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FenAshburn

I'll give some too! This was very helpful!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Christa627

Aw, thanks, you're too kind :-).

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hellomidnight

Mi ĉial ami vin.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hellomidnight

Ok, I'm going to post about this again with an explanation. The best translation is "Mi ĉial ami vin" (experts feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). The English phrase puts "love" in the infinitive, "to love". It's divided liked this: [I] [have every reason] [to love] [you]. Not: [I] [have every reason to] [love] [you] as you're currently trying to translate it.

If you divide the sentence up correctly, with the "to" belonging to the infinitive "to love", it's a fairly straightforward translation. "Mi ĉial ami vin" (I have every reason to love you). We don't use the "have" in the Esperanto because "have" doesn't have the same broad connotation in Esperanto as it does in English, but it's the best translation and most accurate translation of what you mean, IMO.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Christa627

"Mi ĉial ami vin" is not a grammatical sentence because it lacks a main verb (an infinitive can't be a main verb). Apart from a few special cases like "Kion fari?", all sentences need a main verb; one ending in -as -is -os -us or -u. And this sentence doesn't have one. "Ĉial" means "for every reason", not "have every reason"; it's an adverb. So "Mi ĉial ami vin" means "I, for every reason, to love you", which is ungrammatical.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hellomidnight

Ok, thank you for the correction.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/salivanto
salivanto
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Well, if you want my opinion, I posted it 23 hours ago elsewhere in this thread. "I love you for every reason" is an odd thing in any language. "Mi ĉial ami vin" is an odd sentence.

  • Mi amas vin pro multaj kialoj.
  • Mi amas vin pro senfinaj kialoj.
  • Mi amas vin pro ĉiuj kialoj.

The first two make sense, but the last one does not. "I love you for every (possible) reason"? Really? What are some possible reasons? Do you love me because it gives you gas? If not, then you don't love me for every reason.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hellomidnight

I agree, but it's an idiom no? It's meant to be taken figuratively, not literally. If you look at some of the examples given in this course (e.g."For every reason, I have to fly"), you could make the same argument about them.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/salivanto
salivanto
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I asked that same question in my post. I was hoping some native non-English speakers would chime in. It seems to me that there is a difference between "I have every reason to X" and "I X for every reason."

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wochenweise

Ĉial seems a bit esoteric if you don't happen to speak a language which offers a similar concept. (German does not even offer for every reason. One might get somewhere in the vicinity with überhaupt, but not very close.) But this is not the only case where one language allows to say something easily, while in another language it is very hard to find words for it. My theory is that there is a meaning, and that it is quite logical, if maybe somewhat metaphysical, and it tends to escape one if the native language doesn't know the concept.

1 year ago