Nederlandse dialecten / Dutch dialects
In verband met de vragen, correcties en discussies die we tegen komen over het beste taalgebruik, de beste vertaling en regionale verschillen, is dit een draad voor observaties en opmerkingen over hoe wij, Nederlanders, verschillend spreken.
Interessante informatie over de dialecten van Nederland (en die van België) vind je bijvoorbeeld hier:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_verschillen_tussen_het_Nederlands_in_Nederland,_Suriname_en_Vlaanderen ; https://dutch-beta.ned.univie.ac.at/node/47 ; http://neon.niederlandistik.fu-berlin.de/nl/nedling/langvar/dialects ; http://www.kennislink.nl/publicaties/de-dialecten-van-het-nederlands ; http://www.janstroop.nl/oudesite/artikelen/Groetenenwensen.shtml
P.S. Het is niet de bedoeling dat je hier een waardeoordeel van een dialect geeft.
As we’ve encountered questions, corrections and discussions about the best language use, the best translation and regional differences, this is a thread for observations and comments with regards to how we, the Dutch, actually speak.
Sources which might be interesting, referring to the dialects of the Netherlands (and Belgium), can f.i. be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_dialects ; http://www.livius.org/dutchhistory/language.html ; http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/640154/West-Germanic-languages/74780/Dialects ;
P.S. Please steer away from giving any value judgments of the different dialects.
Interesting. I would have expected "adieu" to be used mostly in the South (i.e. nearer to the French speaking world) just like "salu" but it seems to be just the opposite.
I've actually never heard anyone say "salu" in Noord-Brabant, so I'm quite surprised/intrigued. I think that in Noord-Brabant we tend to say "houdoe" or "doei", which is kind of confirmed by the map. :)
Hier in België, wordt het woord salu veel gebruikt in dialecten, vooral in Oost- en West-Vlaanderen. Wanneer er voor korte tijd afscheid genomen wordt zeggen de mensen salu, wanneer ze denken iemand nooit meer terug te zien zeggen ze adieu. Luc
Well, as you can see Adieu has been grouped with Adie and Ajuus. This group has mostly been signalled in the South-east of a province, which is called Overijssel. It's also roughly where I live, so I can offer some context.
Ajuus indeed tends to be the prevailing use of parting words. However, and this is a big however, it is not (and supposedly should not be seen as, or equated with) adieu. Not in a value judgment type of way - but the words are pronounced very differently. The A is still comparable to the A in adieu The J is a j as you often encounter in Dutch; not the dj-sound you hear in adieu The uus-part is very hard to explain, as I don't think the sound is used in English. Go to google translate, put in a Dutch box the word "excuus" (translate to excuse) and click the pronunciation-button in the Dutch box. It isn't pronounced perfectly, but it's very close to the uus in ajuus. So for instance note that the s can be pronounced (it varies) - whereas this it completely absent from adieu.
So it's possible origins are similar to the French adieu, but the current pronunciation is completely different :)
There are a few towns in the south of Limburg that say Adieje. But it's only a few individual towns that do that..
This is amazing! I have almost exclusively heard 'dag', and sometimes ''t beste' or 'tot ziens' and thought the others were dialects rather than 'normal' Dutch. This is quite and eye opener! Are there other words that have such wide variation in usage?
Hello, I have a "dialectbook" here with 12000 words used in Flanders(Eastern en Western). A professor on the university of Ghent wrote it. There are a lot of words became official Dutch(Belgium) but not used in "Holland".
Interesting! I am aware of the fact that in Belgium a dialect of Dutch is spoken, and having met with people from Belgium, I was aware of the difference in words used as also the pronunciation. I guess it is no different as the English spoken in Scotland , Wales and some of the erstwhile colonies of the British Empire!
I'm not sure how this is defined by linguists, but I wouldn't call Flemish a dialect. Dutch in the Netherlands and Dutch in Belgium (Flemish) is more like UK English and US English. And within both countries there are a whole bunch of dialects.
E.g. where I'm from in the furthest southwest of the Netherlands, we have the West Flemish dialect, but we don't have use the Belgian words (e.g. valies, bompa, ambetant). So in terms of how we pronounce vowels, sounds we change/leave out it's similar to close-by Belgian regions, but in terms of words we use it's closer to the rest of the provence of Zeeland.
West Flemish people tend to understand me better when I speak dialect, than when I speak general Dutch. Anywhere in the Netherlands except the southwest, it's no use speaking my dialect, nobody would understand me properly. :)
Apart from English, a similar situation also exists with German. German and Austrian standard German are quite close to each other but do have some differences. These are restricted mostly but not entirely to a few Austrian words unknown in Germany and in the fact that where German standard German has a northern and a southern variant of some grammatical rule, in Austria only the southern variant is correct. Swiss standard German is hardly spoken any more (during the 2nd World War people started speaking only the dialect) and has been diverging significantly faster from the other two variants.
For languages such as English or German, the term pluricentric language has been coined, in the case of German with centres Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
It seems to me that this term can very well be applied to Dutch as well, and it appears that some linguists have done that. (Some have also discussed the pair Dutch+Afrikaans as almost a single pluricentric language.) I think this is probably what you mean when you say you wouldn't call Flemish a dialect: It's a national variety inside a pluricentric language.
It doesn't surprise me that the words you use in West Flemish is typical of (part of) the Netherlands whereas the pronunciation points more towards Belgium. Pronunciation reflects the original natural dialect continuum. Vocabulary is strongly influenced by the respective national variety. German as spoken in Bavaria has a similar position between German and Austrian German, and for the same reason.
I live near at 40 km of Zeeuw Vlaanderen. We often come in Cadzand, Oostburg...and I know that the dialect there is a kind of West Flemisch dialect. Wish you a nice day Luc
According to the (very recent) Dutch taalportaal [language portal], the Dutch linguists deem Flemish a group of dialects and/or regiolects; not a language. See the last FAQ-question: http://www.taalportaal.org/taalportaal/resources/qanda.html
Of course, the fact that they've made it a seperate question -as well as some other authority disagreeing- means it's very near the border between langauge and dialect.
In other news: the taalportaal could very well be a nice resource in the near future for speakers of English who are learning Dutch. But it's still under construction - and information might not be easily understandable.
Hi I'm from the Netherlands and I would say you have to use 'doei' of 'tot ziens' this are normally used words the other words are more like a dialect.