"זה לא אותו הדבר."

Translation:It is not the same thing.

July 26, 2016

25 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rokssolana

I don't think I've ever heard this sentence with the definite article before the דבר, it usually sounds like זה לא אותו דבר. Is it just me mishearing, or do the locals actually often make this mistake? Or is it not a mistake at all, but depends on context?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NaftaliFri1

Locals user both interchangeably. Your hearing is excellent for a foreign language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnCatDubh

What you’ve heard is the less formal version.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sam_wise_gamgee

ze lo oto ha davar


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/1Talmidah

This אותו is the same as the direct object "him" right?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Snommelp

Can דבר also mean "word"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hamutaltul

there is דָּבָר (da-var) meaning something; דַבְּר (da-ber) meaning speak (order someone to talk); דֶּבֶר (de-ver) meaning plague disease; and דוור (da-var) meaning mail carrier.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

Well, in the Tanakh it could mean word beside thing (ויהי כל הארץ שפה אחת ודברים אחדים Gen 11.1 Now the whole earth had one language and the same words), but nowadays one uses מִלָּה word for this.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hsn626796
  1. Is "now" equivalent to "ו" in ויהי ?

  2. Why not ל"כל" ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14
  1. Well, many chapters (like here the eleventh) in the Tanakh begin with a ו that does not connect sentences like and, but marks the start of a new episode, a new turn in a narrative or the introduction of a new character: והנחש היה ערום מכל חית השדה Gen 3.1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field or ויהי אחר הדברים האלה והאלהים נסה את אברהם Gen 22.1 Now it happened after these things that God tested Abraham. This English now does not indicate the present time, but tries to express a change of circumstance, many translators leave it simply out. My gosh, the deceptive simplicity of Hebrew syntax really overloads the ubiquitous conjunction ו.
  2. Well, in reality Gen 11.1 is not a possessive sentence, but a nominal clause, i.e. the earth was language and words. Now the substantival predicate is often used in a broader sense, like a noun of material (הַמִּזְבֵּחַ עֵץ Ez 41.22 the altar (was of) wood), the thing contained (הַדּוּד אֶחָד תְּהֵנִים טֹבוֹת Jr 24.2 one of the baskets (was full of) good figs) or an abstract quality (כׇּל־נְתּיבֹתֶ֫הָ שָׁלוֹם Pr 3.17 all her paths were (of) peace or אֲנִי תְפִילָּה Ps 109.4 I (am a man of) prayer). So less sloppy translated the sentence is worded the whole earth was (of) one language (or lip) and (of) the same words.

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeismerEsc1

וְשָׁפַכְתִּי֩ עַל־בֵּ֨ית דָּוִ֜יד וְעַ֣ל ׀ יוֹשֵׁ֣ב יְרוּשָׁלִַ֗ם ר֤וּחַ חֵן֙ וְתַ֣חֲנוּנִ֔ים וְהִבִּ֥יטוּ אֵלַ֖י אֵ֣ת אֲשֶׁר־דָּקָ֑רוּ וְסָפְד֣וּ עָלָ֗יו כְּמִסְפֵּד֙ עַל־הַיָּחִ֔יד וְהָמֵ֥ר עָלָ֖יו כְּהָמֵ֥ר עַֽל־הַבְּכֽוֹר


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NaftaliFri1

Not in modern Hebrew, but in older texts you will find that.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ariel166202

Isn't the word "same" אותם? If it depends on context, when would you use each one?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

It all depends on the gender and number of the noun they are attached to.

אותו - masculine singular

אותה - feminine singular

אותם - masculine plural

אותן - feminine singular

So, it will be as follows:

אני רואה את אותו הגבר

אני רואה את אותה האישה

אני רואה את אותם הגברים

אני רואה את אותן הנשים


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ariel166202

Oh okay. I had a feeling it might’ve been this but I was’t exactly sure so thank you for clearing that up!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hsn626796

Why is there no את before אותו ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hamutaltul

The word אותו means את in 3rd person, singular, masculin.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Michael112818

You are right, but that does not answer his question. There is no את because "the same thing" is not a direct object here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

Thanks for this question and the two excellent responses. According to Muraoka (Modern Hebrew for Biblical Scholars, xxi), both אותו בית and אותו הבית mean "the same house." I'm guessing that the latter is going to be used if it follows את. If there is a prepositional phrase, of course, then את is not needed, e.g., הוא הולך לאותו הבית כל יום, "he walks everyday to the same house." I bring in Muraoka because he makes two helpful comments about אותו: this sort of usage comes from Mishnaic Hebrew and it is often indistinguishable from the definite article, which may help explain why the two (אותו בית = אותו הבית) are interchangeable.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

The output of this Japanese Hebraist Takamitsu Muraoka is incredible. I already own a heap of his books, but I will have a look at this too. Thanks!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jeftakels

How do hebrew people keep "him" and "same" apart? Is there a difference in pronounciation?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

Context. Just like you can know when to say read and when to say read. Or tear and tear.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IngeborgHa14

No, אוֹתוֹ has only one pronunciation. These are not even synonyms, but have the same morphology, which is used in different positions of the sentence for different purposes. In this sentence, when having started זֶה לֹא, hearing the word, it must mean same, because there was no transitive verb beforhand, and this is confirmed by placing a noun, הַדָּבָר, directly after it. Sense unfolds while hearing how the sentence is running.

Learn Hebrew in just 5 minutes a day. For free.