"הסוס אצלךָ?"

Translation:Is the horse at yours?

July 28, 2016

100 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GerryVeenendaal

I am not a native English speaker, but the sentence: "Is the horse at yours?" sounds very strange to me, while the sentence "Is the horse with you" just sounds normal.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LSadun

Agreed. "Is the horse at your HOUSE?" sounds OK (and isn't accepted), as does "Is the horse with you?" (with a different meaning) but nobody in Texas would ever say "Is the horse at yours".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/leaderdmd

All o y'all are right!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaPaulKrug

Someone who is a native Hebrew speaker speaking English might make this sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nunchler

I am a native English speaker and I agree, the only way I could see "Is the horse at yours?" happening naturally is in a really specific conversational context.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/linguat0r

What situation will need to happen I'll say such phrase?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shimkelevine

I don't see the cat at our house. Is the cat at yours?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

The word אצלךָ really means "at your place" and so you might say it about a cat: החתול אצלה, "the cat is at her place."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hopebradley1

I'm English and I'm really surprised nobody has heard this before?! It's very common here, it's what we'd say to ask if something/someone was at another person's (usually) house. The "yours" being your place.

e.g. Did I leave my jacket at yours last night? Let's just go to yours.

We also use it in reverse, "mine" refers to my place. e.g. Why don't you come to mine this afternoon?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CarrieYael

Interesting. We don't say that in the States. We would say, "Did I leave my jacket at your place last night?" or "Let's go to my place."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/N9kZ2

Yeah that's completely normal to me as well.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chanieHoff

She is correct. Duolingo needs to correct


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

"At yours" just doesn't work in any English I know. Maybe in New Zealand or someplace it's a saying. Plus it's close to "up yours." Maybe it's supposed to mean "with you."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Virginia233167

It's a really, really common British way of saying "at your place."


[deactivated user]

    You are right. A rather long time ago, when we were all young, we were sitting at the table one morning and about to pour hot water into our cups to make instant coffee, my brother asked an American friend who was staying with us in Guatemala: -"You like coffee? You want? Up your cup!" Our guest couldn't help but bursting into laughter, although at the time none of us children quite understood why.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PennyFore

    Doesn't "is the horse at your house" mean the same thing as "is the horse at your place"?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

    House is more specific. Usually it would be a house, but it can mean your palace, your cave, your room. Actually if it's a real horse, your farm or your stable seem to me more likely than your house.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DinaMichae1

    I wrote"the horse is by you?" But i got it wrong, not sure why


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hava_Dorit

    "The horse is by you" is an expression Jews use in English, but it is by no means correct (in other words, if I had known enough to use it in grammar school, my teacher would have scolded me.). Unless, of course, it was standing beside me.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shimkelevine

    It is a literal translation from the Yiddish. In Yiddish we would say ״צי איז דער קאץ ביי דיר?״ . This a very common expression, and someone who grew up around Yiddish speakers might well use this in English. I have heard it many times. (It's not just in NY. I once even saw a button from Louisiana which said, in Yiddish-imitation lettering "How's BAYOU?" There are a number of other expressions from Yiddish which have become English in certain circles, which can be limitted or very large. For example: "Nu?" ״נו?״ "shmooze" ״ ,״שמועסa meshuggener" ״ער איז א משוגענער״ a shtik, a mamzer, a klutz, farklempt and many more. NY English is particularly adaptive with words from Italian "amore" "mamma mia" etc and from Spanish "amigo" and Japanese "sayonara". Some of these words have become such a part of English that we do not always realize they are borrowed, such as "gung ho" and "to kowtow to someone" both from Chinese.But Yiddish is probably the largest source of borrowed words in the colloquial English of Jews (and others) in NY and Hollywood.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LSadun

    Really? Where would Jews use that expression? I've been an English-speaking Jew for a long time, and I've never heard it. To me it just sounds like bad English, and not particularly Jewish.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shimkelevine

    I don't know where you grew up, but I grew up in a secular Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn in the 40s-50s, and these expressions were used often, and at least understood passively by almost everyone there. -- On a deeper level, what do you mean by "bad English"? Unlike French or Spanish... or Hebrew, English has no academy with the authority to proclaim what is correct. What is considered correct grows out of usage and changes over time, as well as from place to place. Sometimes, it is used as a marker for class prejudice, so that the speech of the underclass is designated poor English. Sometimes, it reflects regional preferences. Or national differences ("Off the light" is correct English in Nigeria; "no left infiltration" is correct English in India (used in official government proclamations) People speak differently in South Carolina than in Maine, and certainly than in Scotland or Ireland. English is such a rich and varied language that no one can master it all, and the fact that you have "never heard" an expression is poor proof of anything. -- BTW, I went to college 90 miles from home and found upon my return on Winter break that if I talked on the streets of my Brooklyn neighborhood like I did on my Pennsylvania campus it would be poorly received. My conclusion was that language is not correct or incorrect but appropriate to a particular context or not. In my later career as a language teacher, I have seen this affirmed by linguists as well.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/aquababies

    Fascinating! Very interesting! Thank you for your observation about the "correct" and "appropriate"...


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chanieHoff

    You haven't been in chassidish communities too much have you? How is it by you? Or how is it with you? Come to my mind easily.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TeribleT

    Chanie, As I stated earlier Litvak and Galitianzer, not Chassidic Yiddish. They are similar and mostly to somewhat mutually intelligible BUT NOT the same thing.

    Americans & Brits both speak English, it's mostly mutually intelligible, but it's not the same thing.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hava_Dorit

    OK, I guess I should modify my statement: Some Jews use it. Mostly New York Ashkenazim, from my experience. I agree with you, it does sound like bad English. I never used it, myself. I didn't grow up in New York.

    I saw a comment on a similar sentence from someone who said the syntax was familiar to them, more like German. Perhaps it would make sense to some Ashkenazim too?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TeribleT

    (Didn't see this but again , NY Ashkenazi, I'm also surrounded by Yiddish speakers, maybe you heard it from a specific dialect? I've never heard it, I'll ask the family if they've ever heard it in Yiddish in Litvak or Galitzianer but I'd be really surprised, as I've heard most of the Yiddish expressions they use).


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BillDe

    I don't understand this. I heard "by you" constantly from NY Jews with Yiddish ancestry. I have never heard it elsewhere. In fact, I claim there is a NY dialect of English with this and many other characteristics. (Many of the mistakes in this course come from the fact that some of the authors are speakers of that dialect.)


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hava_Dorit

    I don't know the specific backgrounds of those who use this phrase. But now that I'm on my fourth round with this sentence, I remember that my ulpan teacher explained אצל to the English speakers as "at ___'s place." She would have me translate this sentence as "Is the horse at your place?".

    I am aware that others have asked about this wording already, but perhaps not when I was here last.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrianTice

    It's perfectly normal construction in Russian, which had some influence on Yiddish.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/melinson

    ביי מיר ביסתו שיין =bay mir bistu sheyn


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TeribleT

    Sorry in the app, can't edit: Ok just conferred. Was told never, but somewhat similar expression is used: A mansion next to yours ... To denote future success.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LSadun

    That makes sense. Having grown up Sephardic in Washington DC, I'm not up on Yiddish-inspired turns of phrase.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shimkelevine

    Your remark is very sensible. Again, in language, context is everything... within bounds, of course.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davidinla

    יותר טוב לכתוב ביידיש ככה: „בײַ מיר ביסטו שײן.״


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/meirzev

    I have not heard the construction "by you", "by us", etc. in a long time, but I can confirm that it was used by relatives and acquaintances from Eastern Europe.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrianTice

    That's much better than the English provided (which sounds like a severed thought).


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RebbeBrian

    "By you" is very common Hebronics phraseology, so it seems it should be accepted as a correct translation from Hebrew.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LSadun

    What is "Hebronics"? I've never heard that term.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RebbeBrian

    Hebronics is (Ashkenazic) Jewish English. Entire yeshiva courses are dedicated to the phenomenon in NYC yeshivot. Things like "You want I should eat by you?" (instead of "with you") or answering a question with a question, e.g. "How am I? How should I be with this fakachtah goiter?"


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shimkelevine

    Hebronics is a misnomer. The examples you give have nothing to do with Hebrew. They are however typical of a native speaker of Yiddish in an only partly successful effort to change languages. "farkakte" is pure Yiddish, an expletive based on the colloquial Yiddish term for 'to defecate.' (cf. גיי קאקן אפן ים, - gey kakn afn yam). "by you" is a word-for-word imitation of ביי קיר - bay dir. etc . The common term for this is not Hebronics, a clear misnomer, but Yinglish. People also speak of a related phenomenon "Yeshivish".


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shimkelevine

    correction: ביי דיר


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LSadun

    Is that just a NYC phenomenon? Or, more specifically, of NYC Orthodox communities? Is the term a play on "Ebonics" for Black American English? Having spent my life in Jewish (but not Orthodox) communities across the USA, I'd never heard of it.

    Answering a question with a question is stereotypically Jewish, but I don't think I've every heard anybody outside of New York say You want I should ... instead of You want me to ...


    [deactivated user]

      The English statement is incorrect. You don't say that. You have to add the word "place" after the possessive.
      You must keep in mind that the expressio is colloquial and informal, which doesn't mean it is wrong. Just a matter of registers. Which reminds me of an embarrasing experience because of not realising there were such registers as a yioung person. I remember taken a lesson on programming to try and get a job with IBM when I was 17, here in Guatemala. I was asked by the instructor: "Where do you live?" "At my sister's", I answered. -"Your sister's what?" she asked, looking annoyed. -"My sisters place", I said. -"What do you mean? Does she live in a cobweb?", she asked, seemingly happy to make me feel stupid for having used what to me was an everyday expression.

      I am convinced that as an instructor she was wrong for having done this. I never came back after tha, shy as I was.

      But there again, it is good to be able to distinguish between formal and informal.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shimkelevine

      Mayte, you are correct and your teacher must have had little experience in the English-speaking world.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CarrieYael

      That's interesting. I speak American English natively. Even though "at yours" sounds incomplete to me, "at my sister's" sounds perfectly fine.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LSadun

      That's because at my sister's is short for at my sister's place, and our brains can easily fill in the missing word. But there isn't any word you can stick after "at yours" that makes sense.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

      With yours, at yours, up yours. LOL. Somehow we know what these mean. I think you're right about the awkwardness of the phrase as presented in DL, but an exception is poetry (but poetry is always an exception): Bob Dylan's brilliant song "I'll keep it with Mine," and Paul Westerberg's "Knockin on Mine": https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xenq68


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hebrewninja

      was it hard for anyone else to understand what the audio was saying?


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dennis385858

      Yes, l had a problem with the audio too. It sounded like the first syllable of the second word was part of the first word. So i heard הסוסת ... something. Even after playing it a few times.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tomasello6

      Is the horse at yours? Is not proper English.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tom692410

      I would say the best translation is "in your place". Alas it is not accepted by duolingo and also all the comments by other users here are apparently ignored...


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

      Thanks for chiming in here, which made me dig into this matter. Muraoka (Modern Hebrew for Biblical Scholars, xxxiv) writes that modern Hebrew uses an extremely large number of prepositions and prep. phrases. "One gets the impression of oversupply, a direct result of the symbiosis of multiple layers in ModH, namely BH, RH and ModH." [Biblical Hebrew, Rabbinic Hebrew, and Modern Hebrew.] אצל, according to Giore Etzion (Routledge Introductory Course in Modern Hebrew, 192) also means "in one's possession" (in addition to "at one's place"). An example is הכרטיסים אצלך = יש לך הכרטיסים. Both mean "you have cards." So this sentence in Hebrew, הסוס אצלך, can mean "you have a horse," as a question, "Do you have a horse?" Etzion writes that this prep. typically follows a verb that describes things that you do at a place such as ללון, לבקר, להיות. Since there is no verb here, we aren't given any help about whether this prep. has the locative sense or possession sense.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Swifty652067

      Not a good sentence


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BarbaraFin182142

      אף אחד מדבר כזה באנגלית!


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

      Of course they do. Check other comments!


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gyardley

      Barbara might not be technically correct, but she's very close - this is such a rare and tortured construction in English, said by so few people, that it should be fixed.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danny912421

      Millions of British English speakers are "so few people"?


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gyardley

      I speak British English.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/robolewa

      The translator decided to give me "is the horse at yours"


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HTIKVA

      Is the horse at yours? Is this an idiomatic expression? Or English slang? We used the "at yours" back in the late seventies and mid eighties! slang!


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LSadun

      See the discussion at the top of the page.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HelenHowar9

      I agree that the English usage as given here is wrong. "Yours" is not a stand alone word in this context.


      [deactivated user]

        הסוס אצלך should be considered right also!


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dedee395090

        No one wiuld say it this way in australia neither . It is time that duo lingo learn english lol


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MosheTorto

        This sentance makes no sense in english.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DianeKohn

        Not a good example of proper English.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Andrea194242

        Not a good translation


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarciaAnnK

        In English this sentence doesn't make any sense. You can say, at your (house, office, etc. but it requires a noun with it) and no s.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeahLapidus

        This is not normal English, though it may be proper British English, i dont know, but this sounds ridiculous in American English


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeahLapidus

        This sentence does not make sense in American English


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarciaAnnK

        It sounds ridiculous in English! We would never say that.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tanya552904

        This is not a typical english reply.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidMeyer777754

        In southern England it would be perfectly fine to say "....at yours" or ".....at your place". In other parts of the UK, or other English speaking countries, it may well be articulated in a completely different way. BTW, I am amazed at the extreme length of this thread. And I have just added to it!


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Walter375725

        The translation "is horse at yours" looks like pure nonsense. I translated "is the horse with you" It was accepted.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

        The translation is not “is horse at yours”, but “Is the horse at yours?” If you had read the comments, you would have known that this is acceptable British English, or American English: “I don’t see the horse at my place. Is the horse at yours?”


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Walter375725

        I've never kept a horse in my house. A dog and a cat - yes. But a precedent does exist in history - a horse was a member of Roman senate. And a lot of donkeys still are in USA senate.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

        In this context, I would assume “at my place” or “at yours” would mean stables. “My place” is not restricted to the building in which I live.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Walter375725

        Some people keep the miniature horses and pigs in their houses (or even in apartments). I would not do this. Some people even keep wild animals as lions in the house. Usually they are (sooner or later) maimed or killed by their pets. (sometimes even by the dogs - but this is rather unusual).


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DarynGlass

        This is a bad English translation. No native English speaker would say this.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rona70s

        I have never seen so much discussion about one question. We are learning Hebrew not English so it is the Hebrew that's important. I think most of us understand what it is trying to say. I just accept Duo's idiosyncrasies and move on.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nachshon10

        "Is the horse yours?" makes sense. "Is the horse AT yours?", does not make sense.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davidinla

        די קאץ, דער קאטער, in Yiddish. Di kats, der koter.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Max832753

        Is the horse at my'ses? ;)


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/h4willi

        you might want to consider correcting the awkward English at several places in this lesson . . . just have a native speaker (English) point them out to you


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CarrieYael

        I thought the prepositions in this lesson were supposed to use the plural endings, hence אצליך instead of אצלך. Is this not the case? Is there a good way to know which is which?


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

        There is no such thing אצליך. If the "yours" refers to plural "you", the Hebrew would be אצלכם or אצלכן.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AuntyOlga

        Should be at your place. At yours not correct English


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VdgC11

        How about: "Is the horse in your possession?"


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

        That suggests more than just the location of the horse, more in the direction of ownership, at least temporary. Hebrew has a closer term for that, הסוס ברשותך.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/miriam525097

        So, the problem is that אצל is can be understood in the same sense of "chez" in French "at your place/house." But it also has the sense of being "with you." My Hebrew teacher explained to me as it being "with you, at your place.'

        So, a book someone borrowed can be אצלך in your backpack, or it can be אצלך at your house.

        "At yours" is a poor attempt to capture both senses of the meaning simultaneously.

        I think "in your possession" is actually the closest meaning that captures both senses simultaneously -- something can be in your possession with you or it can be in your possession where you live/work/claim space.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidSande830027

        I taught I was here to learn Hebrew. But I must say I am learning so many specific translations of English that I'm wondering if it is grammatically correct English I'm learning, And now even this questionable thing. That sounds to me like some kind of British slang. Waste of time!


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MariaBeren430744

        Лошадь у тебя?


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rona70s

        I have seen so many comments about one question. We are learning Hebrew not English. I just accept


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gfresa

        That sounds weird in English. Maybe it makes more sense in Hebrew, but it really needs "at your place" to sound native.

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